MC cartridges - low output vs high output? Which do you prefer and why?

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nnck

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MC cartridges - low output vs high output? Which do you prefer and why?

I know very little. Please discuss the pros and cons.
And what factors do you tend to consider when making your choice?

dlaloum

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Gain Requirements
This side of the comparison is 100% in favour of the High Output devices rather than the low output ones. (Yes there are such things as Low Output MM's as well!)

Basically the more gain (boosting of the output) is required in the system (ie the lower the output of the cartridge) - the more difficult it is to make the phono stage (or phono stage and step up transformers) sound good.
Higher gain all else being equal, also involves higher noise and higher distortion.
So to achieve equal levels of quality in the output of the phono stage, it must be substantially higher quality.
The lower the output of the cartridge, the higher the quality of the phono stage required to amplify it for the same equal quality result.

To put it simply a $300 phono stage that only has 40db gain (used for HOMM and HOMC) will sound better than a $300 phono stage that has 65db gain.

For similar quality in the higher gain stage, you need to double the cost (roughly). - Of course if you double the cost of the lower gain stage there are improvements to be made there too...

If you include the additional cost of the phono stage (and/or transformers) then a strong argument can be made that the two types are very much equivalent in quality. (ie $300 phono stage with $700 HOMC cartridge, vs $600 phono stage with $400 LOMC cartridge....)

High vs Low Output - number of turns of the coils

To put it simply, a high output MC achieves its higher output by having more turns of wire in the coil - more turns = more voltage...
So to achieve its higher output the HOMC has to have more wire attached to the cantilever, more mass on the cantilever is a negative - it increases the inertia of the cantilever.
For high performance, and the ability to properly track high frequencies (which require that the needle change direction many of 000's of times per second!) - the equivalent tip mass of the stylus needs to be below 0.3mg.
Most HOMC's have trouble reaching this low mass (and therefore their tracking ability at higher frequencies is reduced) - example: Early version Ortofon X5-MC (HOMC) had effective tip mass of 0.4mg, current production is using lower quality cantilevers and is specified at 0.75g effective tip mass.
At the same price point, Ortofon's Rondo Red (LOMC) has an effective tip mass of 0.3mg

Both designs use an aluminium cantilever, assuming you had the earlier higher quality X5MC, the additional turns of wire are adding approximately 0.1mg of additional mass to the stylus tip.

On the other hand, if that were a boron rather than aluminium cantilever - lets look at another example:
Ortofon MC Jubilee with a VERY fine boron cantilever achieves 0.22mg stylus tip mass - if one was to fit the additional turns of coil wire required to provide this as a HOMC design - it would add around 0.1mg making it 0.32mg.... 
That would provide pretty much the level require for very good HF tracking - while also providing the advantages of high output.

So: It is POSSIBLE to create a HOMC with similar levels of tracking ability (due to low stylus mass) to everything but the best TOTL LOMC's. (Ortofon's lower end LOMC's often have stylus tip mass of over 0.4mg eg: MC Salsa, Samba, MC25, )

Most manufacturers do not quote stylus tip mass... so you are left guessing...
A cartridge with a boron or a ruby/sapphire cantilever is usually an indication of very low tip mass. All else being equal the HOMC will have higher stylus tip mass.

NOTE: it is often forgotten that the lowest tip masses achieved have always been on Moving Magnet designs and not Moving Coils. Fundamentally, a high efficiency small magnet is lighter than even minimal coils. - And on MM designs that accept lower output (similar output to many HOMC's - around 1.5mV) the stylus tip mass is in most cases lower than the equivalent MC. (even though the mythology says the MC's are lighter! - check out the specs for cartridges like the Technics EPC100mk4 - less than 0.1mg, or EPC205mk4 less than 0.15mg)

Permeable vs Non-Permeable cores
High output MC's and most low output MC's as well use permeable coil formers.

These have the advantage that they are more efficient - and therefore provide a higher voltage output... the downside is that they have a whole series of distortions that are in common with all magnetic cartridge designs other than MC's with non-permeable coil formers.

Cartridges with non-permeable coil formers have low voltage output (sometimes VERY low voltage output)... examples of this rare breed of cartridges includes:
Denon DL304, DLS1, Fidelity Research FR-7, JVC L-1000, Benz-Micro Ruby, and most Lyra models.
NOTE: almost all step-up transformers suffer from the same type of distortions - this is one of the advantages of a solid state MC phono stage...

My Preference

I don't have one. (a favourite)

Whether running HOMM or LOMM or HOMC or LOMC - the best cartridges out there are totally competitive with each other. (some categories are not currently being made and are therefore rare as hens teeth - eg: LOMM)

For best results make sure you look at the system wholistically - the cartridge needs to be a good match for the arm, table, and phono stage. (including things like cartridge loading, damping, compliance etc...).

I have a theoretical leaning towards LOMC's with non-permeable cores... but I have several HOMC's and LOMC's.... (and none with non permeable cores!)

The Dynavector Karat (LOMC) with its tiny 2mm cantilever made of Ruby is quite the "gem" - primarily caused by exceptionlly low tip mass, and cantilever rigidity....

I very much like my Pickering XLZ7500s LOMM - which requires the same level of gain as a LOMC... Not sure why it sounds so good! Tip mass is unknown - I don't believe it is in the super low tip mass category - although it certainly is in the low tip mass class.

I am currently seeking a needle for my Technics EPCP205mk3 - it has an exceptional magnetic system (the equivalent of the MC non-permeable cores?) - but have not been able to find a stylus for it  :(

Hope this helps,

bye for now

David

DaveyW

A couple of quick snippets to add to David's (once again  :thumb:) thorough response.

Once loaded optimally (very important), I struggled to tell a difference between both the Hi & Lo versions of the generally highly regarded Dynavector 20X.

I have found that HOMC's are sensitive to resistive loading, many requiring (to my ears and on my system) lower than the now typical 47k Ohms.
LOMC's do tend to be less sensitive on this front.

Having tried a reasonable selection of both Lo and Hi examples, my favoured Moving Coils are both low output - Denon DL-S1 & AT 0C9 MLII
OK the former is of a higher value but never-the-less.

Cheers
Dave





Delta Wave

I have yet to try a LOMC, perhaps one day if a decent SUT falls into my lap. I just don't think it's worth the hassle (for me) at the moment.

I am curious about SPU cartridges though, does anyone know what the significance or advantage to using one is ...aside from needing a heavy(er) arm?   

dlaloum

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I am curious about SPU cartridges though, does anyone know what the significance or advantage to using one is ...aside from needing a heavy(er) arm?
It sounds good?

Delta Wave

Thanks?

THROWBACK

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Dlaloum--very nice response, thanks. Two things: 1) try Soundsmith for your new stylus. They do a great job. 2) I believe there is more to the story. You talked about the needle having to make many reversals per second, and the cartridge's compliance has a lot to do with its ability to do so. I am learning just how much the cartridge/tonearm combo has to do with the sound also--not just whether its primary resonance is in the famous 9-12 Hz range, but how other resonances may be excited up and down the range.

I'm not sure it's even possible to answer the question of which is better: LO or HO. Too many other variables.

nnck

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Gain Requirements
This side of the comparison is 100% in favour of the High Output devices rather than the low output ones. (Yes there are such things as Low Output MM's as well!)

Basically the more gain (boosting of the output) is required in the system (ie the lower the output of the cartridge) - the more difficult it is to make the phono stage (or phono stage and step up transformers) sound good.

David. That is a lot of useful information to take in. Wow. Thank you.

I'm wondering if the following is even worth consideration: Given a phono stage that has a very high gain, will the use of a LOMC allow the user to control their system better at low volume levels?

I do a lot of listening at both low and high volumes - by using a HOMC, would you say it is more difficult to make fine adjustments when listening at low volumes? On the other hand, if I decide to use a LOMC, then when I decide to listen at higher volumes, I'll presumably have to increase the system volume somewhat to get to the same level as I would had I been using the HOMC - so are you saying there might be more noise and distortion by using the LOMC to reach that higher volume than there might be if using the HOMC to reach that same higher volume?

Hope that makes sense.

I'm not sure it's even possible to answer the question of which is better: LO or HO. Too many other variables.

I would say that is probably true. That is why I am just looking into the different considerations and situations involved with using one vs. the other.

TheChairGuy

Whatever sounds best is what is preferred.

Your listening time is your private solace - enjoy whatever sounds best to you in your system and listening room be it high or low output.

Don't get caught up in too many nuances of vinyldom and simply enjoy it.

Cheers, John

vinyl_guy

nnck, great thread--thanks for starting. Thanks to David & Dave (and Throwback) for your responses. I learned a lot this morning. :D

Speaking of SoundSmith, Peter makes several moving iron cartridges, in both high and medium compliance. The less expensive ones have an aluminum alloy cantilever and the more expensive ones have a ruby cantilever (his newest cartridge uses a cactus needle for the cantilever). Available in both wood and acrylic bodies. Peter's designs have a very low effective moving mass. I have my eye on The Voice.

Currently, I have two cartridges, the Sumiko Blackbird, a high output MC and a Lyra Skala, a low output MC. The Blackbird works with the MM inputs on my phono stage (43db gain) and the Skala uses the MC inputs (63db gain). My Blackbird sounds best loaded at 47k and I go back n forth between 100 and 300 ohm loading on the Skala. I prefer the Skala because it retrieves more details in the music than the Blackbird, gives a fuller musical presentation and a wider and deeper soundstage (it also cost 4x the Blackbird).

Laura

Berndt

I started out with the usual mm suspects and had a great time.
Moving to a homc sumiko blackbird I heard a touch farther into the music and this scratched my itch for a few years. I'd played some with a dennon 103r but never really got what people where talking about. Also tried the sae homc but compared to the blackbird it seemed veiled in my system.
The cart that illuminated the lomc sound and its potential for me was a dynavector karat and the altec peerless 4722 step up transformer.  I got to begin to experience the sense of scale of a concert hall, the image of the dimensions of the church interior became more present. The spatial cues of instrument placement. The dynavector has/had a touch of edginess but going back to the blackbird when I blew the cantilever off of the dv had me listening to more digital. You get spoiled really fast. I've compared a lot of head amps and suts and keep coming back to the 4722. It gets the tone and the accuracy that I enjoy. This is just my experience, in my system. I am on the cartridge treadmill. Using a zyx airy3b now and think moving up the foodchain cart wise is my audio future.

neobop

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LOMCs are preferred by most of those seeking the "ultimate". The low output means fewer turns of wire, less tip mass, and virtually no inductance in the output. The vast majority of today's LOMCs are capable trackers. They do put greater demands on associated equipment, especially phono stage and table (arm), which is a good reason to spend big bucks on those. If you're seeking the "ultimate" you're spending it anyway.

A HOMC will put similar demands on the table/arm, but are generally higher tip mass and worse trackers. There are almost no HOMCs made today that are competitive IMO, with only a few exceptions. With companies like Benz that offer most carts in a variety of outputs, the LO is preferred by those seeking perfection. In general, I prefer LOMCs because of what's available, not really theoretical reasons. I have a capable phono stage that supply up to 67dB gain, so why not? On the other hand, I'm tempted to buy one of those SAE 1000 HOMC because it seems like a great buy and a very capable cart. 

Trover

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Concerning only low MC I have only heard them, never owned one. Very good but there was a fair amount of noise and hum along all that detail and "air", maybe it was'nt an ideal set up. But on Dynavectors own website (a manufacturer that makes only MC cartridges) it said, besides the extra output they provide, High output MC's may be a better choice than low output MC's in high RFI areas (radio frequency intereference). I live in a high RF area. I took their word for it and have not tried low MC's eventhough HOMC's are a compromise of the ideal MC design by using more wire on the coil. Historically the most expensive and highly regarded cartridges have usually been low output coils. I use MM, MI and HOMC.

nnck

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Concerning only low MC I have only heard them, never owned one. Very good but there was a fair amount of noise and hum along all that detail and "air", maybe it was'nt an ideal set up. But on Dynavectors own website (a manufacturer that makes only MC cartridges) it said, besides the extra output they provide, High output MC's may be a better choice than low output MC's in high RFI areas (radio frequency intereference). I live in a high RF area. I took their word for it and have not tried low MC's eventhough HOMC's are a compromise of the ideal MC design by using more wire on the coil. Historically the most expensive and highly regarded cartridges have usually been low output coils. I use MM, MI and HOMC.

This is a good point. Which reminded me of something I hadnt thought of in a while. When I have the phono input selected on my preamp and have the volume turned very high up (albeit, with nothing actually playing) I can hear RFI coming through but ONLY when I have my fingers touching the tonearm (I guess my body is acting as sort of antenna?).

Is this a typical response to touching your tonearm, or is this some strange situation in my environment?
Do you think it is this likely to cause some sort of problem if I wind up buying a LOMC cartridge where the volume will have to be be up higher? I'd hate to spend a lot of money on a LOMC to find it unlistenable due to excess noise.

Berndt


neobop

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David. That is a lot of useful information to take in. Wow. Thank you.

I'm wondering if the following is even worth consideration: Given a phono stage that has a very high gain, will the use of a LOMC allow the user to control their system better at low volume levels?

I do a lot of listening at both low and high volumes - by using a HOMC, would you say it is more difficult to make fine adjustments when listening at low volumes? On the other hand, if I decide to use a LOMC, then when I decide to listen at higher volumes, I'll presumably have to increase the system volume somewhat to get to the same level as I would had I been using the HOMC - so are you saying there might be more noise and distortion by using the LOMC to reach that higher volume than there might be if using the HOMC to reach that same higher volume?

You're not necessarily at a higher setting on your volume control with a LO cart. The additional gain of a MC input is typically 20dB. Sometimes using a transformer will give you more output and you could be at a lower setting. Output from carts can also vary a lot. Some LOMC have as little as 0.15mV out. Others can have 0.5mV. More gain in the phono stage makes that amplification more critical, especially with noise. Most equipment has quieter MM stage than MC. Those are the demands I was referring to previously. IMO you can get excellent performance with either, but it's all relative mostly to your equipment, record player and phono stage.   


nnck

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You're not necessarily at a higher setting on your volume control with a LO cart. The additional gain of a MC input is typically 20dB. Sometimes using a transformer will give you more output and you could be at a lower setting. Output from carts can also vary a lot. Some LOMC have as little as 0.15mV out. Others can have 0.5mV. More gain in the phono stage makes that amplification more critical, especially with noise. Most equipment has quieter MM stage than MC. Those are the demands I was referring to previously. IMO you can get excellent performance with either, but it's all relative mostly to your equipment, record player and phono stage.

Well to give a little more info, the gain of my preamp phono stage is 66dB. The output of my current HOMC cartridge is 2.5mV. I would think that moving from a 2.5mV cartridge to a LOMC (looks like there are a lot of choices with around 0.4 - 0.5mV), would mean you would have to increase the volume setting on the preamp to get to the same level. Am I right here?

neobop

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If you're running the 2.5mV cart into a MM stage, I think 66dB would be the total gain including line stage. Normally a MM stage has around 40dB gain and a MC stage has 60dB. The line stage part of a preamp is usually 10 to 20dB additional. Preamps with built-in phono can be either MM or MC or both. If your phono has 66dB by itself it's a MC stage. Some preamps like Audio Research often have one phono input with higher than "normal" MM gain. Your 66dB figure would be about right for those. People often use med output MCs or HOMCs with them. Loading is accomplished by soldering resistors underneath.  Without knowing what you have that's the best I can tell you.

neobop

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I just looked at your system page. Modwright LS100 w/MC phono board?

Yes, you'll be higher on the volume control with a LOMC. It should give you much more usable control. Your phono is designed for a LOMC. It's probably loaded (resistance) for a LOMC unless you changed it. Of course, I'm assuming that's what your using.

TONEPUB

I have yet to try a LOMC, perhaps one day if a decent SUT falls into my lap. I just don't think it's worth the hassle (for me) at the moment.

I am curious about SPU cartridges though, does anyone know what the significance or advantage to using one is ...aside from needing a heavy(er) arm?

Having just purchased an SPU after reading all of Art Dudley's musings, I can see why he likes it so much.  The SPU has a somewhat vintage, warm, weighty sound that is really nice on records that are less than stellar.

Think of the SPU as kind of like a good SET amp in terms of sound - really magic midrange, yet with very solid, and slightly underdamped bass.

On the right pressings it's heaven.  Crappy records sound better than they should, and great records lose a little bit of slam and "pinpoint imaging" but the presentation is so nice, you probably won't care.

This is a cart you'll either love or hate, but I suggest you try one if you have the opportunity.  Using mine with an SME 3009 that was recently restored and loving it.