[nnck]

I just looked at your system page. Modwright LS100 w/MC phono board?

Yes, you'll be higher on the volume control with a LOMC. It should give you much more usable control. Your phono is designed for a LOMC. It's probably loaded (resistance) for a LOMC unless you changed it. Of course, I'm assuming that's what your using.

neobop-
You guessed it all right. It's a Modwright LS100 with built in phono. I just double-checked my email from Dan, and the total gain of the line + phono is 70dB.

So my assumption about more usable volume is probably true if I switch from the HOMC with 2.5mV (it's a Benz Micro Ace H) to a LOMC with around 0.4 - 0.5mV? And perhaps a more important question - besides more usable volume, will I notice any other improvements if I use a LOMC? Although it would be nice to have more usable volume, I dont think I would want to spend the money just for that. If I find some other improvements, thats a different story.

A few of the LOMCs I was thinking about are:

Benz Micro Wood SL
Shelter 501 II
Dynavector 20X2 Low
(I think all have output roughly 0.4 - 0.5 mV)

[neobop]

Just so there's no confusion about terms, not more volume - more control = less volume with lower output cart.

I can understand the problem. Your Daedalus spks are 97dB and you have a 100 wpc Modwright amp. Pretty cool, you could blow yourself right out of your man-cave!!    But it isn't easy to control when there's a ton of gain. In one of my systems I'm using a line stage with 20dB gain and a phono stage set at 67dB. Even with a 0.2mV cart I can't go past 8:00 normally. I keep forgetting to order resistors to try intermediate gain settings. Maybe I'll put it back in the other system.

As far as your Ace H, if you like the sound I would be reluctant to change unless it's getting old or you want to start collecting carts. If there are aspects you're not crazy about and want something different for your system, then definitely. I don't really know how much of a problem it is. You have a big room and it's open to another equally big room? Maybe you really need more records or room treatment, I don't know that either. I see your list is carts known to work well with your VPI arm. That's good, but we'll have to get specific about cart vs cart and what change you're looking for, to go any further. Hope this helps. 

[Hemy]

OK Guys I need to throw a question in here since I think its realtively close to the current topic. I want to know what I need to buy or do to my Turntable and or Receiver to get more volume out of it. I have to turn the volume up twice as loud with my record player compaired to playing a CD. I tried buying a preamp thinking that would do the trick but I think it was a waste of money. The turntable sounds fine its just that I have to turn the volume WAAAY up to get good volume out of it....please help! 

[twitch54]

Hemy, we need more info..........what cart, receiver are you using. The issue most likely is one of 'gain' as it relates to cartridge - phono section - preamp

[neobop]

OK Guys I need to throw a question in here since I think its realtively close to the current topic. I want to know what I need to buy or do to my Turntable and or Receiver to get more volume out of it. I have to turn the volume up twice as loud with my record player compaired to playing a CD. I tried buying a preamp thinking that would do the trick but I think it was a waste of money. The turntable sounds fine its just that I have to turn the volume WAAAY up to get good volume out of it....please help! 

A DAC with a variable output?

What are you running, specifically?

[Hemy]

Turntable = Technics SL-3300 w/ Ortofon om53 needle
Yahama RX-V595a receiver
TC-750 Professional Moving MAgnet Preamp (only bought this because I thought it would boot the output and give me more volume...not the case!)
Thanks in advance guys!!

[Scottdazzle]

neobop-
You guessed it all right. It's a Modwright LS100 with built in phono. I just double-checked my email from Dan, and the total gain of the line + phono is 70dB.

So my assumption about more usable volume is probably true if I switch from the HOMC with 2.5mV (it's a Benz Micro Ace H) to a LOMC with around 0.4 - 0.5mV? And perhaps a more important question - besides more usable volume, will I notice any other improvements if I use a LOMC? Although it would be nice to have more usable volume, I dont think I would want to spend the money just for that. If I find some other improvements, thats a different story.

A few of the LOMCs I was thinking about are:

Benz Micro Wood SL
Shelter 501 II
Dynavector 20X2 Low
(I think all have output roughly 0.4 - 0.5 mV)

NNCK:

You won't have any problem with a low output mc cartridge with the LS-100.  Dan Wright designed it for use with low output carts.  I have used the following cartridges with my LS-100 and they all worked just as they should have:
Soundsmith VPI Zephyr (2.4mv output)
Koetsu Rosewood (0.4mv)
Dynavector DV-20X2 (1.0mv).

Of course they all have their own distinct sonic signatures, but output levels are only a factor in so far as you can only use lesser portions of your volume control with higher outputs.  All other things being equal, I'd suggest you go with low output. 

Scott

[Scottdazzle]

OK Guys I need to throw a question in here since I think its realtively close to the current topic. I want to know what I need to buy or do to my Turntable and or Receiver to get more volume out of it. I have to turn the volume up twice as loud with my record player compaired to playing a CD. I tried buying a preamp thinking that would do the trick but I think it was a waste of money. The turntable sounds fine its just that I have to turn the volume WAAAY up to get good volume out of it....please help! 

Hemy,

This is to be expected. The output from the cartridge is much, much lower than that of a cd-player or other line stage source. Phono stages in receivers generally have relatively little gain because of the cost and difficulty of designing low noise high-gain phone preamps. You probably want to change to a higher output cartridge than the Ortofon.

Scott

[Hemy]

Thanks Scottdazzle...SO a better gain of a needle is the only way to get the volume up? Any suggestions? I only paid about $60 for the Ortofon and would consider paying more to get this thing up to par with other peoples!! I would like to enjoy my Def Leppard Hysteria albumn even more!

[nnck]

Just so there's no confusion about terms, not more volume - more control = less volume with lower output cart.

I can understand the problem. Your Daedalus spks are 97dB and you have a 100 wpc Modwright amp. Pretty cool, you could blow yourself right out of your man-cave!!    But it isn't easy to control when there's a ton of gain. In one of my systems I'm using a line stage with 20dB gain and a phono stage set at 67dB. Even with a 0.2mV cart I can't go past 8:00 normally. I keep forgetting to order resistors to try intermediate gain settings. Maybe I'll put it back in the other system.

neobop-
Thanks. I think we are on the same page talking now. You are right again- the output from the phono stage has always been louder than the line stage in my system, but when I added the Daedalus speakers recently with the higher sensitivity, it became a bit more apparent. Its a bit difficult to control the volume of the phono stage when trying to use a remote (goes from silent to LOUDD!! in just a few clicks), but other than that, not a big deal I guess.

As far as your Ace H, if you like the sound I would be reluctant to change unless it's getting old or you want to start collecting carts. If there are aspects you're not crazy about and want something different for your system, then definitely. I don't really know how much of a problem it is. You have a big room and it's open to another equally big room? Maybe you really need more records or room treatment, I don't know that either. I see your list is carts known to work well with your VPI arm. That's good, but we'll have to get specific about cart vs cart and what change you're looking for, to go any further. Hope this helps.

Well, there were 2 aspects to my asking these questions to begin with. First, was the issue with less usable volume (less control) with the HOMC that I use. It seems that I've pretty much nailed down that this is more of an inconvenience than anything else. So I dont have a great need to switch from the Ace H immediately. But still, I'm sure that somewhere down the road I will get the urge to upgrade cartridges anyway. Up to now, I have never considered a LOMC because of the preamps I've used, but now with the LS100, I can consider them. So, when I do decide to upgrade, I want to think about whether to upgrade to an LOMC or stick with a HOMC. If there are sonic benefits to the LOMC, I'd definitley like to try one of them out. Plus I'll have the convenience factor of more usable volume control.

So I just want to start thinking about them now. Who knows if I might see a deal I cant pass up on some cartridge some day. That's why I am interested in knowing the sort of attributes or flavors of these various contenders. I dont necessarily have a complaint about the sound of the Benz Ace H, but how would the Benz Wood SL compare to that? And how would these other brands compare to the 'Benz-sound'. That info can help me sort out what I'm looking for in my phono stage, and when I'm ready to upgrade or if I see some deal on a cartridge, I'll be more informed. Again these ones I am looking at the most here are:

Benz Micro Wood SL
Shelter 501 II
Dynavector 20X2 Low

I suppose you could add the Koetsu Rosewood (0.4mv) that Scottdazzle mentioned as another one to compare these to.

And @ Scottdazzle - I thought the Dynavector 20X2 came in a 2.8mV High and 0.3mV Low version. You mention one that is 1.0mV?

[Scottdazzle]

Thanks Scottdazzle...SO a better gain of a needle is the only way to get the volume up? Any suggestions? I only paid about $60 for the Ortofon and would consider paying more to get this thing up to par with other peoples!! I would like to enjoy my Def Leppard Hysteria albumn even more!

If you have the OM-530, its output is 3mv. That's a little on the low side for moving magnets.  I would recommend a cartridge with 5mv or higher output for you.  Audio Technica makes several that are popular with AC members. I'm not personally familiar with them, but they have a good reputation.  The more expensive alternative is to buy a moving coil cartridge and a separate phono preamp to run into one of your line (not phono) inputs.

[Scottdazzle]

NNCK,

Yes, they have a third version of this cartridge. It's designed for use in VPI tonearms, but I imagine it would work the same in any other tonearm.  You can read about it here:
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=HW-DYN20X2M

I am not affiliated in any way with elusive disc - the link just happens to be where I found out about this cartridge.

Scott

[neobop]

Turntable = Technics SL-3300 w/ Ortofon om53 needle
Yahama RX-V595a receiver
TC-750 Professional Moving MAgnet Preamp (only bought this because I thought it would boot the output and give me more volume...not the case!)
Thanks in advance guys!!

First, you have the output of the 750 plugged into a high level input on the Yamaha like aux and not the phono, right?

I couldn't find your Ortofon model listed. Do you have the spec sheet? Most OM have an output of 4mV, but there are a couple that have considerably more. It would be good to know this before you buy something.

When I joked about a DAC, I wasn't really kidding. There are carts wither higher output, but getting one with just a little higher output won't do all that much. If you made the CD volume lower would it be okay? If so something like this would do it and improve the sound of the CD if you have a regular player and not a high end one. [I saw another listing for a new one for over $400]
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BERESFORD-TC-7520-DAC-/200708702589?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ebb2bc17d

If you just need more gain on the phono maybe we can figure out what to get. The ones with more output might not be that great, I'm not entirely shure (pun intended).

Edit: OM-530? The 2M Red/Blue is 5.5mV. Most ATs are less than 5mV. AT-120/440 - 4.5mV.
The 530 was kind of pricey, $60? Maybe it's a OM-5E?

[neobop]

Nnck,
In your situation you'll be happier with a good LO cart. The majority of those chasing perfection use them and don't look back. Exactly what cart is impossible for me to say offhand. A lot depends on your music, the sound of your system, what kind of sound you're looking for, $,  etc etc. For example a Koetsu is romantic and involving, ZYX more accurate. A Grado Signature (LO) excels at vocals and the DV 20X has big bass and a mellow detailed sound.  I've only heard a couple of Benz since '89 so I'm not qualified to comment. You can get something decent for $400 or pay $4K  or more. If you want to try something less expensive, you could get an AT33EV for $400 at J & R, or an AT33PTG for the same at joynetmall.com. Tonepub says the new Ortofon Vivo(?) Blue sounds great for $400. I bet the Ortofon A-90 sounds great - I think it's under $5K. For that matter the Van den Hul Colibri might beat it for similar money. 

Keep in mind what will work with your arm and output. A Denon 103 probably isn't recommended. A Denon DL-S1 should, and it sounds really nice. The output is 0.15mV which is really low. You might have enough gain with those spks and electronics. For $950 it's worth considering. It interacts badly with some electronics, but that's unlikely with your tubes. I honestly don't know how it would compare to the Benz wood. I'm also not familiar with Shelter. Others like Lyra and Transfiguration are said to beat it. ? YMMV

Beware of deals too good to be true. They counterfeit high end carts in China. I don't know what else to tell you except you might consider posting this question on Audiogon forum.  It should make interesting reading.

[Hemy]

Yes neobop I tried it in DVD/SAT, TV/DVR, VCR and AUX and all give the same output. I even compared it to just plugging straight into Phono like normal without 750 connected and the levels are still the same. So guys whats the verdict....new needle or something different? If I still had "The Stereo Shoppe" around here in Lansing, MI I would go straight to them as they installed my current needle but that place is close as are many other hi-end stereo places...sad  .

[neobop]

Yes neobop I tried it in DVD/SAT, TV/DVR, VCR and AUX and all give the same output. I even compared it to just plugging straight into Phono like normal without 750 connected and the levels are still the same. So guys whats the verdict....new needle or something different? If I still had "The Stereo Shoppe" around here in Lansing, MI I would go straight to them as they installed my current needle but that place is close as are many other hi-end stereo places...sad  .

You previously said it's dead sounding. Is this in comparison to your other sources at a similar volume setting, or altogether? If you turn the volume up, does it sound good?

It would probably be better if you didn't get a disco cart and possibly overload your phono and/or degrade quality. This is a common complaint. Most people just change the volume. Going past 12:00 usually isn't a problem. I'm not sure if you just want sources of similar volume or if it's a real problem.

We're not even sure what you have. Is OM53 the needle number or model of the cartridge? I found around 50 different OM when I searched. Some were disco types with high output. Is it black? Can you shed some light on this?

[Hemy]

Basically I am comparing the volume at which I have to play a Record VS a CD...the volume for the Record has to be turned up much higher than with a CD. The cartrige is Black and the info I gave is what was on the box and the cartrige.
Is this common place to have to turn the volume up so much more with a record than a CD for everyone else even with better eqipment?

[neobop]

Yes, it's normal to need more volume for phono. IMO It's better if you don't change your cart and just remember to turn down the volume when going from one source to another. In this case the cure is worse than the disease.

That DAC I mentioned before, really works great on my regular CD player. Sound quality is improved and I use the variable output and volume control to improve it even more. I've found that by varying the DAC volume and the preamp volume I can get an even nicer sound. Just a thought.

[Hemy]

Thanks for the info neobop....The volume on my CD player is just fine I was just wondering about making the Turntable better but I guess its not worth it....Thanks everyone for the help! 

[Indiansprings]

Basically I am comparing the volume at which I have to play a Record VS a CD...the volume for the Record has to be turned up much higher than with a CD. The cartrige is Black and the info I gave is what was on the box and the cartrige.
Is this common place to have to turn the volume up so much more with a record than a CD for everyone else even with better eqipment?

To answer you question. It is common.