[Martyn]

....but with somewhat different needs.

Hi, folks.

The last time I had anything with tubes in it was when I was a student and we had to scrounge abandoned TV sets and fiddle with the tubes to get them going again. It was a long time ago! Since then, I've always been a solid-state guy, but recently I've started being drawn to tube amps. I'd like to give one a try, but I tend to have champagne tastes and a beer budget so DIY is probably the way to go. I'm assuming that there are some DIY guys in this circle...

I know nothing whatsoever about the different kinds of tube amps, other than that SET amps sound great but don't have much power, and push-pull amps have power and dynamics, but don't sound quite as good as SETs. My speakers are around 90 or 91 dB efficiency, so I think I need quite a lot of power relatively speaking. Also, I'm looking for an amp with two inputs and a volume control, so I guess that makes it an integrated amp. I found the Decware site and was strongly attracted by the Torii MkIII, but it's not available as a kit and is $3k plus options fully built, which is is outside my budget. All his other designs are quite low power.

So here's my question: is there a tube amp design that will meet my needs (including the champagne tastes) and can be built for, say, under $1k. I would go higher if you tell me I have to for a world-beating design, but let's draw the line there for the moment. I'm not an EE and V=IR is about my limit, but I am an ME and can follow instructions (if they're not ambiguous and have pictures) and can deal with any woodwork and metalwork. I can solder and am just about smart enough to survive being around high voltages.

So what can I build that will have adequate power and wonderful sound for ~$1k?

Thanks in advance...

Martyn

[JoshK]

I am a tube diy'er, but I can't think of any project off hand that meets your criteria.  Most good projects require a lot more understanding than you admit.  Meaning they are just schematics for which you follow, but no instructions.  There are some diy projects which are more step by step but they tend to the lower powered that I can think of.  Sometimes you just have to cut your teeth first.

[pdaddy]

Yagin MS 20L. Has decent power and can play in triode or ultra linear mode to taste. Ships for about $650 on eBay from a guy in Canada that checks it out before he ships.

[Martyn]

Thanks, Josh. I remember you pointing me towards an Akido preamp a couple of years ago, but my feeling was that I wouldn't have sufficient knowledge. I'd need a lot of support for something like that, and it's support that is rather boring for the folks I'd be relying on to have to explain.

I was hoping that there might be a tube integrated amp that would be a bit more than schematics...maybe a bill of materials with suppliers and part numbers, and perhaps a few photographs. I'd have a reasonable chance with something like that as long as there were a few kind folk I could turn to occasionally. A kit would be OK too, except that the cost/benefit ratio would be a little higher. Of course, this whole thing has to fit my power/SQ/budget criteria too, so perhaps it's a long shot...

[InfernoSTi]

If it was me, I'd consider a Bottlehead Sex 2.1 amp http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=44&rn=433&action=show_detail for two reasons: first, it will sound great, even if a lot under powered for your speakers.  That will let you get to know "tube" sound and see if you like it.  Second, it will have some of the very best instructions possible.  You will be successful building this kit and you will learn a lot doing it which will open doors for what you may want later.  Bonus: it's really inexpensive and has an excellent headphone amp.  Oh, and it will have decent resell value if you want to move on.  No, it won't play at anywhere close to concert levels in a large room on your speakers but I've always found that tubes deliver a lot more "oomph" than their wattage implies...high current amps are like that!  It's $500 so don't be put off too much by the 2 watts of power.  Learn to build tube amps and the world is your oyster!

John

[Martyn]

pdaddy, thanks for the suggestion. A quick search led me to a whole new world of Chinese amplifiers (I didn't know that Jolida was Chinese)! Having been to China a couple of times on business, I've learned to be wary of the quality of Chinese products and to take all claims with a big pinch of salt, but I'm willing to be educated!

John, I do know the Bottlehead name and you're right - it would be a safe route to take, but surely 2W isn't going to be sufficient? They say that their Paramount 300B is good for speakers down to 93 dB and they're 8W...I'm 2dB below that. Hope you don't think I'm being argumentative, just trying to understand...

I think I need a primer to help me through the jargon!

[marvda1]

check out this thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1283685

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/454124

[OzarkTom]

Also check out the Napa Acoustics  Integrated Amplifiers that so many were talking about at the CES show last week. They start at $399 and looks are fantastic.


http://www.napaacoustic.com/Electronics.html

This must be a new one they were showing in Vegas, I don't see it on their website.

[Martyn]

Interesting...another Chinese amp. It must be hard to compete with ready-built prices like that. It seems like a very crowded marketplace, which no doubt drives manufacturers to compete on looks as well as price. As you can tell, I'm nervous about entering the bottom end of the market, especially with Chinese products.

Here are a few amps that have caught my eye:

A Dynaco kit starting at about $750 (excluding tubes): http://triodeelectronics.com/st70buildkit.html.

An Elekit at $1,250: http://www.vkmusic.ca/tri.htm.

An Audio Note starting at $2,150 (expensive): http://www.audionotekits.com/kit1mk2.html.

Any comments on the likely performance of any of these, or suggestions for alternatives? These kits look like simple assembly jobs. Something a little more challenging would be within my capabilities and would be attractive if the usual DIY cost/benefit payoff applies - I'd rather pay for a top performance design and components than for assembly labour and a flashy chassis.

Of course I still like the Decware Torii starting at $3,000: http://www.decware.com/newsite/TORII.htm. I guess I'm hoping that someone has cloned it!

With so many designs and prices, at what point does the SQ diminishing returns curve flatten out? Are there a few "no-brainer" designs?

[Poultrygeist]

This 845 should give you plenty of power and maybe for less money than the buy it now.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Music-Angel-XDSE-Super-845-x-2-Vacuum-Tube-Hi-end-Tube-Integrated-Amplifier-U-/310373366783?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4843b1bbff

[InfernoSTi]

John, I do know the Bottlehead name and you're right - it would be a safe route to take, but surely 2W isn't going to be sufficient? They say that their Paramount 300B is good for speakers down to 93 dB and they're 8W...I'm 2dB below that. Hope you don't think I'm being argumentative, just trying to understand...

Martyn,

No worries...we are all trying to find our own audio path to follow and everyone has to make their own choices. There rarely is a "right" and "wrong" just "this" and "that" if you know what I mean.  The large decisions in the decision tree seem to be: DIY vs Manufactured and Solid State vs Tube.  I am in the DIY Tube camp but absolutely respect the other choices, too.  Perhaps this explains half of my recommendation: I believe that once you build your own amp, there is a special kind of pride and a detailed knowledge of how your amplifier works that is it's own reward. I have built my own electronics from kits and from scratch and know Bottlehead kits are an excellent place to start.  However, I recommended an inexpensive amp to get started with...one that you could repurpose as a headphone amp, etc.  So part of this is about learning to DIY with tube amps, if that makes sense.

91db speakers are neither low nor high sensitivity...they are very middle of the road.  So they can be a "crossover" speaker to be used with a variety of amps, some more so, some less so (but much more so that an 86 db speaker, right?).  I think there are other factors to consider that have not yet been discussed. First, how large is your listening room?  A small room vs a large room is part of the equation that makes a big difference.  Second, how loud you listen is important: I tend to listen at lower levels but like detail and sound stage and dynamics, which I get from a low watt SET amp.  This is a different experience than cranking it up and hearing a concert.  Neither is right or wrong...just how one likes to listen.  A 91 db at 1 watt at 1 meter is louder than I listen typically.  I might listen at 81 db peaks typically.  So 2 watts in a small or medium sized room on 91 db speakers would be about fine for me most of the time.  I agree, 8 watts would really be great but the cost factor of a 300B amp are significant.

I do think you are getting a lot of good recommendations...perhaps the logic behind the recommendations would help you select the path you want to follow.  I would ask folks "why" they made their recommendation as that would be informative, I believe.

Cheers, John

[Martyn]

This 845 should give you plenty of power and maybe for less money than the buy it now.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Music-Angel-XDSE-Super-845-x-2-Vacuum-Tube-Hi-end-Tube-Integrated-Amplifier-U-/310373366783?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4843b1bbff

Thanks, that looks clean and simple on the outside, but actually contains a lot of stuff packed in a small box! I'll see what else I can find out about it...

[Martyn]

John, than you for such a thoughtful reply.

On the decision tree, the DIY v. manufactured decision is mostly about value for money (more value for the same money, rather than just doing things on the cheap), but there is a certain satisfaction as you note. I'm a DIY speaker guy and also have an AKSA amp and Hagerman "Ripper", both of which were kits (but very well documented), and a Felix inspired by The Lab (which I found more difficult). On the SS v. tube side, my AKSA and all my commercial gear is SS, so that's not really an issue - I want to try a tube amp. I recently posted elsewhere on AC about choosing a preamp for my AKSA, but the more I thought about it, the more I realised that I could buy the Decware Torii for much the same price as my AKSA plus a preamp. Maybe I should just do that and sell the AKSA, but this is a new world to me and it would be an expensive mistake if I were to make a bad choice...and there's still the DIY value and satisfaction to consider.

I use two rooms for audio: my living room is a good size, perhaps 19 by 25, and I sit about 15' from the speakers; my other room is narrower, about 12 x 25, and I sit nearer. I listen fairly loud (my wife says, very loud), but probably less than 91dB. It sounds better that way, but if a tube amp doesn't need to be cranked up so high, that would be great. I suppose that 91dB at 1W and 1m is equivalent to about 90dB at 4W and 4m, so 4W should do it, except that the amp will be absolutely balls-out, as we say, and I guess extra headroom would multiply up really fast!

You're right about detail, soundstage, and dynamics. These are very important to me - flat and lifeless doesn't do it.

A good part of my quandry is the mystery (for me) around the jargon, and not just SET and push-pull, or triodes, pentodes, and cathodes, but also the 300B kind of thing and the basic tube numbers that keep cropping up. Should I look for AL34, KT88, 6550 tubes or what, and does it even matter? I haven't a clue!

It would certainly be interesting to ask people why they suggested what they did, but that will entail a lot more effort on their part, hence my distilled question in my first post: adequate power and wonderful sound for ~$1k (more for the truly sublime)!

[avta]

Although I have not used any of their products this company has some well reviewed equiptment. I happen to see this ( the tube amp at the bottom ) :  http://avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=125&Itemid=176

[Poultrygeist]

I love my Bottlehead 2a3 Paramours ( 3.5 wpc ) which have no problem driving 93 db Tang band OB's in a 15X15 room. I never get as far as 12:00 on the Foreplay III Preamp volume control.

[Mark Korda]

Martyn,I too love tubes and am on a beer budget,a Papst Blue Ribbon budget!Dynaco amps sound like the way to go.You could take a chance and look on e-bay.Theres a ton of them on there.Thats what I did.I bought a Dyna-35 and stripped it down and rebuilt it my self with new circuit boards and caps that I also found on e-bay.Some one brought the Dynas back and has all new parts and kits for sale.All the manuals can be found on e-bay,and there is even a Dynaco tube amp forum that I joined and the guy who runs it,Bob Latino will help any one out with any questions and has lots of photos.If you go to circles on this site and go to Vintage,the moderator Bill Thomas has some exellent articles on rebuilding classic Dynas that have great photos,even better than the manuals.I don't have the addresses right now,but if you go to Google and put in (Dynaco tube amps)you will find all the stuff I just mentioned.It's always more fun if you build it yourself.Your own satisfaction factor will make it sound like it is the very best in the world....have fun.....Mark Korda

[InfernoSTi]

John, than you for such a thoughtful reply.

You're very welcome. This stuff is fun!

It would certainly be interesting to ask people why they suggested what they did, but that will entail a lot more effort on their part, hence my distilled question in my first post: adequate power and wonderful sound for ~$1k (more for the truly sublime)!

I have a Bottlehead 2A3 Stereomour and at 3.5 watts, I love it very much.  My room size is 18x25 or so and my speakers are 94 db and I rarely get close to 12 o'clock on the volume. Here is the amp I'm talking about:

http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=44&rn=447&action=show_detail

And here is my "build" thread if you are bored and want to read my build and mods (don't feel like you have to):

http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,849.0.html

Perhaps I would change my recommendation to you since that is right in your budget, your room size/listening level fits well with it, and I know personally how well it sounds.  Consider the Stereomour for all the same reasons as the original recommendation but with a higher wattage (and no headphone output).

Cheers,
John

[ken]

There's somebody in Jersey who will custom build virtually any type of tube amp utilizing some vintage parts like output trannies from Hammond organs and is extremely reasonable.  His name is Jim Nichols -Jwnamps 
    All his amps are autobias and accept el34 kt88 kt77 kt66 6l6 and 6550 tubes.  All plug and play.  I have one due for delivery next week and will report back.  Here is a stellar review for one of his amps in the latest Positive Feedback.  Good luck.
http://
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue58/jwn.htm

[Martyn]

Wll, I've spent most of today reading up on tubes and tube amps (thank you, Wikipedia), I'm now a little wiser, but not all that much closer to making a decision. However, a new question has popped into my head: where does that tube sound come from anyway?

If a SET amp sounds great but lacks power, what happens if you take a SET preamp and add a SS power amp? Does the SS power amp conveniently boost all the good stuff, or does it provide gain but introduce new nasty stuff?

In short, would a tube preamp in front of my AKSA SS power amp be as sonically satisfying as a tube integrated amp of the same topology? I can probably guess the answer, but it's a question that's worth answering because I could, for example, build a Bottlehead Foreplay preamp for the same cost as their Stereomour integrated amp.

[Poultrygeist]

If you buy a tube preamp to go with your solid state you will eventually upgrade to a tube amp.

I started with a Miniwatt SET, then added a 2a3 Dared integrated and now have the Bottlehead 2a3 Paramours. The Paramours are my favorite but I wouldn't part with any of them.