What is happening to a capacitor when it burns in?

Rclark · « **on:** 16 Jan 2012, 01:36 am »

I have my own unsophisticated ideas of what's happening, but really I don't know. I've broken in so far Dayton, Sonicap Gen II, ClarityCap MR, and now Jupiter Beeswax and Mundorf Silver in Oil. Each one has been different.

The Dayton/Sonicap Gen II combo in my monitors had a very mild break in, but it was noticeable. The ClarityCap MR's in my amp seemed to have little to no break in behaviour, it was ready to go (really like these caps!), but the Jupiter Beeswax/Mundorf SiO combo in my planars is very very much the rollercoaster experience I'd read about. Some have told me to expect 4-700 hours before final settling.

What's going on here? What's the physical process?

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 01:46 am »

Love the question. No clue the answer. Come on experts!!

Davey · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 02:05 am »

Google it and you can find a zillion possible explanations. Pick the one that sounds (the explanation) best to you and you have your answer.

Cheers,

Dave.

Rclark · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 02:28 am »

Haha I did Google it, but I want you braniacs to tell me, you're the only ones I trust.

mintzar · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 02:38 am »

Electricity likes to follow the path of least resistance.

A capacitor is designed to only pass AC. So in a DC supply or in a crossover filter you are telling certain AC signals "travel through this capacitor, it's the easy way!"

Well... when electricity first sees a circuit or a capacitor it doesn't have what's called an "electron memory". Once an electron finds a path it wants to keep finding that path because it knows that it's easy to follow, it's the path of least resistance. So it memorizes that path. It's the same reason you sometimes see a spark unplugging a lamp from the wall, the electrons still want to flow through that path.

During break-in you have electrons following all kinds of different paths. This causes distortion because it increases the time it takes for the signal to travel down the circuit, increases heat, and increases resistance. Both factors cause noise and distortion.

When resistance is increased you decrease the bandwidth of the circuit and make it harder for the signal to travel.

So as a circuit breaks in that path becomes clearer and clearer, the resistance lowers, and the distortion created by electrons "bouncing around" dissipates.

It's the reason that some folks say that even "broken in" components will need some time to break in when placed in a different system. There are different spectrums of noise in every system and so the electrons and filters need to recreate their pathways for the slightly new signals traveling through them. Until that time the increased resistance causes distortion.

Chromisdesigns · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 03:46 am »

Quote from: mintzar on 16 Jan 2012, 02:38 am

Well... when electricity first sees a circuit or a capacitor it doesn't have what's called an "electron memory". Once an electron finds a path it wants to keep finding that path because it knows that it's easy to follow, it's the path of least resistance. So it memorizes that path. It's the same reason you sometimes see a spark unplugging a lamp from the wall, the electrons still want to flow through that path.

"Electron memory" -- I love it.

Now please, tell us this is just a terrific joke...seriously, you don't think it works that way...?

mintzar · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 04:12 am »

Let me clarify. Since I was trying to keep things simple, I will continue to keep it simple. If you have nothing better to do, perhaps you can lend your definition as well.

Electrons aren't actually 'flowing' anywhere. What really happens is atoms themselves are being positively or negatively charged, which in turn charges other atoms/ions. This creates flow of electricity from ion to ion. Which ions that are charged in the system depends on the resistance between them. The ion isn't going to attempt to charge another ion with the most resistance.

The least resistance the easier for the charge to flow. The easier the charge to flow the more likely the charge to flow in that direction. But every signal will have different resistances through a certain medium. So as these systems are "vibrating" back and forth in the beginning they are charging different ions until they maintain a "Rhythm".

Much like music flowing through the system, the AC and DC signals also travel based on the swing of the music. So as music plays during break-in or signals flow based on the current draw of the component the ions begin to create a rhythm and maintain that rhythm based on the component.

If you think of it like a jump rope... if you try and swing it all over the place it will never be smooth, but if you keep the same rhythm of your pendulum it will eventually smooth out and be harmonious with your swing. Perhaps a bad analogy, but the idea is there I think.

With superconductors you have effectively zero resistance so signals are free to travel in any direction they please. Superconductive materials create a path of least resistance, which is the concept of how the bybee filters work. They are an inside out ferrite core where they attempt to create a super conductor that pulls the signal through a ferrite-like outter shell that converts that noise to heat. They don't quite work like that, but that's the idea.

Ultimately it's about the path of least resistance. If you google path of least resistance you'll get dozens of articles about it relating to electricity. Whatever analogies or words used... that's basically the spine of the concept.

Your brain does the same thing... it's called muscle memory. Electrical signals firing in the brain without you having to think about it actively. But you're not born with certain abilities, you develop muscle memory as you practice them.

Æ · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 04:16 am »

Quote from: mintzar on 16 Jan 2012, 04:12 am

Your brain does the same thing... it's called muscle memory. Electrical signals firing in the brain without you having to think about it actively. But you're not born with certain abilities, you develop muscle memory as you practice them.

So, capacitor burn in = muscle memory?
BwaHaaHaahahahahaha.

mintzar · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 04:21 am »

Electrical signals are electrical signals.

Your body just conducts the electricity through different types of atoms: sodium, potassium, etc. vs. copper or other material.

When your brain tells your arm to move it's sending an electrical signal through your nerves to trigger the muscle to flex in a certain way. The more you do that certain action the faster and easier it becomes.

The same thing occurs with capacitors... it's still electrical signals. They flow for a certain purpose. The more they flow to that point the easier a time they have "getting there".

Æ · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 05:02 am »

Quote from: mintzar on 16 Jan 2012, 04:21 am

When your brain tells your arm to move it's sending an electrical signal through your nerves to trigger the muscle to flex in a certain way. The more you do that certain action the faster and easier it becomes.

The same thing occurs with capacitors... it's still electrical signals. They flow for a certain purpose. The more they flow to that point the easier a time they have "getting there".

So, when Luigi Galvani was playing with frogs legs, what he was really trying to accomplish, was to "burn" them in?

*Scotty* · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 05:42 am »

jneutron might an explanation for this but I don't think you will get one from anyone else that regularly posts here. I don't really care what the cause of the observed phenomena is,most caps seem to change over time for the better and that is good enough for me, plus there is nothing you can do about.
Scott

Chromisdesigns · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 07:11 am »

Does anyone have / has anyone here seen a discussion of why capacitor properties (other than "forming" with electrolytic capacitors) might change over time? Other than in an audio publication or forum, that is...?

There are many critical electronic circuits in rf and digital applications where it would seem changes in capacitor properties might affect operation -- but I have never heard of it outside an audio forum.

Anyone?

Chromisdesigns · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 07:12 am »

Quote from: mintzar on 16 Jan 2012, 04:21 am

Electrical signals are electrical signals.

Yes, but your description of how they propagate is not very well informed.

mintzar · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 07:54 am »

Audiophiles hate analogies

Inform me then. I could say it's because the chicken ate a duck and the duck did a back flip, but you can't just say I'm wrong without telling me what's actually wrong -- I seem to remember that most famous philosophers were wrong 90% of the time, but their ideas ultimately led to the correct information. Just google Luigi Galvani, which AE was so kind to joke about.

Anyway...

If you have a parallel circuit of resistors a proportional amount of current will travel through each resistor based on the resistance value, but the most current will travel down the lowest resistance path. It's ohm's law.

wushuliu · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 08:48 am »

Rclark · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 09:31 am »

How is this a dead horse? You mean nobody has an explanation? I'm seriously curious.

JohnR · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 12:03 pm »

Nobody has an explanation that will satisfy an audiophile and an engineer simultaneously.

Hope that helps

jtwrace · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 12:05 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 16 Jan 2012, 12:03 pm

Nobody has an explanation that will satisfy an audiophile and an engineer simultaneously.

Hope that helps

Yes they do. This one pretty much summed it up.

JohnR · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 12:06 pm »

Don't follow....

Davey · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 Jan 2012, 05:23 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 16 Jan 2012, 12:03 pm

Nobody has an explanation that will satisfy an audiophile and an engineer simultaneously.

Hope that helps

No, it doesn't help. A person can't be an engineer AND audiophile?

Aren't you glad you asked the question Rclark?

There is always the possibility that capacitor "burn-in" is a complete myth and doesn't really happen.

In fact, if Gallup were to conduct a poll of a large number of engineers, egophiles, interested listeners, etc, etc, the results would probably show that preference to be the largest group.

Dave.