[krikor]

What is the distinction between SUV and 4WD station wagon?

In my mind... Ride/vehicle height, wheelbase to height ratio, seat position/ergonomics (more upright with big dash and hood on SUV) and truck like vs. car like ride and handling. We also haul around a big canoe and the lower slung wagons make it a lot easier for loading unloading.

[roscoeiii]

Slightly OT, but did anyone else catch the new Audi AWD ad? Brilliant bit of Moby Dick inspired advertising.

[stereocilia]

Dark days indeed. I've got a 2002 Subaru Outback that I've been considering replacing, but just can't find anything that I feel would work better for us.  And we don't like SUVs, CUVs, or any other *UVs.  And I won't get a new Outback unless they get rid of that goofy roof rack system... just give me standard rails.

I was born and raised, live and work in Motown in the auto industry and would love to buy a compact AWD wagon from one of the Detroit 3.  Discussing why they don't build wagons with an exec from one of the companies, I was told that us wagon lovers are a "vocal minority" but dont' really represent enough marketshare for the effort and investment. Thought it seems other manufacturers can make it work.

Would really like the wagon version (or "Estate" as they call it across the pond) of the new Ford Fusion just revealed at the Detroit Autoshow, but I'm not going to hold my breath that it will be seen in the US anytime soon.

http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2011/10/5/Spied-Ford-Mondeo-Fusion-Wagon-Test-Mule-7705096/

I'm with you 100%  Maybe here in the Northeast wagons are more popular than they are elsewhere, but I see them all time.  It seems  like there are plenty of cars that have less popular appeal than a midsize wagon and are still in production.  Automakers think they can sell more Scion XBs and Nissan cubes than Ford Mondeo wagons?     Then again, I don't understand the fascination with pickup trucks, either.  Far more Ford F-series are sold than anything else on the road.  Trucks are fine for hauling and towing and off-roading, but for driving?  No.  I think that as fuel gets dearer the SUV craze will fizzle and the mighty wagon will rise again!

[rpf]

mebbe you weren't trying enough, or drinking enough?  (i am remembering the time me and 5 of my buds were driving around in a '72 mgb - w/the top up.)   

doug s.

I've never been a fan of full size wagons - due to their handling deficits (it always feels like there's a whale's tail behind me) - even though their cargo space is very appealing. For that reason I've always liked hatchbacks but well designed ones, that are not tiny, are also few and far between.

I've never liked SUVs either but I got fed up with the overly aerodynamic sedans/wagons/hatchbacks that have me staring at the visor and brushing my head against the roof on bumps (and I'm under 6 feet), so I broke down and bought a (used) X3 CUV. Shorter than my GS300, it handles well for it's height and is easier getting in and out of in my older age. The gas milage sucks, of course, but I couldn't find any other crossover that met my ergonomic requirements which makes me angry. Except for the newer Suburu Forester which is the hardest riding vehicle I've ever been in and really noisy (on acceleration) to boot.

What do people who are over 6 feet tall do? Slouch a lot?   

[stereocilia]

I've never been a fan of full size wagons - due to their handling deficits (it always feels like there's a whale's tail behind me) - even though their cargo space is very appealing. For that reason I've always liked hatchbacks but well designed ones, that are not tiny, are also few and far between.

I've never liked SUVs either but I got fed up with the overly aerodynamic sedans/wagons/hatchbacks that have me staring at the visor and brushing my head against the roof on bumps (and I'm under 6 feet), so I broke down and bought a (used) X3 CUV. Shorter than my GS300, it handles well for it's height and is easier getting in and out of in my older age. The gas milage sucks, of course, but I couldn't find any other crossover that met my ergonomic requirements which makes me angry. Except for the newer Suburu Forester which is the hardest riding vehicle I've ever been in and really noisy (on acceleration) to boot.

What do people who are over 6 feet tall do? Slouch a lot?   

If your reference point is the Mercury Grand Marquis wagon or the Buick Roadmaster then sure, there probably is a handling deficit compared to the sedan versions.  But,  I bet the BMW 5-series wagon handles better and gets better mileage with at least as much space as an X3.  (Admittedly, I've never driven either one) Actually, that information is available:  The headroom of a 5 series is 40.5 inches.  The headroom of the X3 is 40.7 inches.  Pretty close.  So, If you never have to go off road then I don't really see the point of a CUV.  Shorter overall length maybe?  I'm 6 feet and have never had a headroom problem in the front seat of any car bigger than a miata.  I guess I just don't hit bumps that hard.  Legroom is another matter, though.

In SUVs and CUVs I always have an uneasy feeling that I'm going to tip over on freeway on ramps or in high winds. Remember all the Ford Explorer rollovers?  A blowout sends the older ones end over end.  Yikes.  I'll take the whale tail effect any day over that.  But, that's why there are so many different cars, I suppose.  My complaint is that there are just not enough wagon choices right now, and even when an automaker has a great wagon choice they can't even be bothered to sell it here (i.e. Mondeo, Passat).

[rpf]

If your reference point is the Mercury Grand Marquis wagon or the Buick Roadmaster then sure, there probably is a handling deficit compared to the sedan versions.  But,  I bet the BMW 5-series wagon handles better and gets better mileage with at least as much space as an X3.  (Admittedly, I've never driven either one) Actually, that information is available:  The headroom of a 5 series is 40.5 inches.  The headroom of the X3 is 40.7 inches.  Pretty close.  So, If you never have to go off road then I don't really see the point of a CUV.  Shorter overall length maybe?  I'm 6 feet and have never had a headroom problem in the front seat of any car bigger than a miata.  I guess I just don't hit bumps that hard.  Legroom is another matter, though.

In SUVs and CUVs I always have an uneasy feeling that I'm going to tip over on freeway on ramps or in high winds. Remember all the Ford Explorer rollovers?  A blowout sends the older ones end over end.  Yikes.  I'll take the whale tail effect any day over that.  But, that's why there are so many different cars, I suppose.  My complaint is that there are just not enough wagon choices right now, and even when an automaker has a great wagon choice they can't even be bothered to sell it here (i.e. Mondeo, Passat).

I was thinking primarily of the Taurus and 70 series Volvo wagons. I liked some of the Saabs, which were primarily hatchbacks though. That was a line of cars with very good ergonomics. I've sometimes regretted not buying a 9000 years ago. Got leery of them once their sales went down and they were no longer independent.

The instability of SUVs rules them out for me too but I don't find most CUVs to be as bad and some are very stable; the X3 in particular. In fact the X3 takes corners better than my (foot longer) Lexus GS300 did.

I've found the BMW 5 series wagons too confining in general. Not enough legroom or shoulder/hip room and windshields that are too sharply raked. Even if there's enough headroom, if the windshield is too angled I find myself looking at the sun visor, which drives me crazy. That was the situation with the GS300 and the only reason I sold it.

[MichiganMike]

I bet the BMW 5-series wagon handles better and gets better mileage with at least as much space as an X3. 

My 2010 BMW 535i Touring (wagon) is the best car that I have owned.  It routinely exceeds 28 mpg at 70+ mph.  It handles and performs much like the 5 series sedan.  The engine delivers 300 lb-ft of torque beginning at 1400 RPM for instant acceleration for passing or merging, achieving 0 to 60 mph in 5.8 seconds in the wagon compared to 5.7 seconds for the 535i sedan (source: BMW specifications).  The wagon is about 200 pounds heavier than the 535 xDrive sedan, but actually is closer to the ideal 50:50 weight balance.  It is equipped with xDrive for inclement weather, easily hauls my two dogs and luggage and in my opinion has a more attractive profile than the sedan.  I previously owned a 2003 BMW 530i sedan and the 535 wagon out performs my previous sedan and is much more comfortable on long trips.

Unfortunately, BMW is not importing the current 5 series wagon into the U.S. due to disappointing past sales.  BMW 5 series wagons in 2010 were less than 5% of U.S. sales compared to more than 30% of sales in Europe.  The 5 series GT is not a suitable replacement for the wagon in the opinion of many BMW owners.  BMW management has suggested recently the possibility of once again offering the 5 series wagon in the U.S. is under review.

[Ericus Rex]

I suppose.  But only 25 mpg highway for the 6 cylinder or only 170 HP and 29 mpg for the boxer 4?  I don't like either of those options. The car we are replacing had 201 HP and 31 mpg highway.  It was perfect.  We have no plans to do any off roading, either.  Also, no DSG transmission.

Old topic, I know, and I also know you've already bought a replacement.  But the Subarus are absolutely fantastic in New England winter weather!  The older Subarus had a switch to go back and forth between 2 and 4 wheel drive that improved their gas mileage.  I think they had reliability issues with that system and switched to AWD, unfortunately.

[ptmconsulting]

We just got a 2012 Outback LTD (1st Suburu we own). They are definitely more of an SUV in style and space than they used to be. Fantastic car all around. We don't typically load the roof rack so it's not an issue for us. There are also after market replacement racks that you can get if you need them.

I can see us keeping this car for quite a while.

[stereocilia]

She went with a CPO 2011 Audi a4 avant.  It's been phenomenal so far, but spending so much on a car with a back seat that small still makes me uneasy.  Still, I have to admit, the smaller size has more often been a feature than a flaw.  And good lord, that torque is addictive.

[TomS]

She went with a CPO 2011 Audi a4 avant.  It's been phenomenal so far, but spending so much on a car with a back seat that small still makes me uneasy.  Still, I have to admit, the smaller size has more often been a feature than a flaw.  And good lord, that torque is addictive.

After previously praising the VW Sportwagen TDi I had, I decided to dump it based on 2 very serious design flaws that VWOA just wasn't going to deal with effectively enough for my comfort (HPFP failures and intercooler icing/hydrolocking). It's a real shame as it was a great car to drive and I loved the fuel economy.

Like you, I ended up buying a CPO Audi A4 Avant S-Line with all the goodies and couldn't agree more. It's a fantastic car, fun to drive, good in snow, adequate utility, and respectable gas mileage. I just need to remember to go easy on the loud pedal 

[mgalusha]

What do people who are over 6 feet tall do? Slouch a lot?   

I had to replace my vehicle in late 2010, some bozo gave me no choice, running into me at nearly 50mph. I'm 6'2" and have had too many head basher cars. I ended up with a Mazda CX7, sport version I think the called it. 2.3L turbo. It's about the smallest thing I could find that would pull my little trailer (I live in the country and refuse to buy a pickup) and that was tolerable to drive without breaking the bank. It will go around corners fairly well, faster than I expected, stops pretty well and isn't terrible on gas, I average 21.5 to work and back. Pretty good in snow and the turbo makes up for most of the power lost due to altitude, I live at 6400ft. Nothing fancy but does what I need, paid about $26K I think.

Oh yeah, lots of head room. I have learned over the years not to buy cars with the moon/sun roof option, that eats up a few inches too much space.

mike

[MichiganMike]

Because Europeans are much more inclined to purchase wagons than Americans, there are many more wagon options in Europe.  Europeans tend to value fuel economy and versatility more, motivated by higher fuel, vehicle purchase and operating costs.  There are Ford Fusion and Chevy Cruze wagons in the works for Europe, but not the US.  Volvo discontinued US sales of the V50 and V70 wagons offered in Europe, but continued sales of their crossover, the XC70.  Audi discontinued US sales of the A6 wagon and BMW did the same for the 5 series wagon in favor of their better selling SUV/crossover models.  For several of the discontinued wagons, annual sales of less than 2000 vehicles per year made it difficult for manufacturers to recover the costs to certify, market and support sales of wagons. 

As Autoblog noted in bemoaning the US discontinuation of the Audi A6 Avant:
"Worldwide, 60 percent of all A6 sales – the best-selling entry in this market segment in recent years globally – are Avants. That's without the goldmines of sales that are the United States and China; the top two markets and both renowned as wagon-haters."
   
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/20/2012-audi-a6-avant-another-wagon-americans-just-dont-get-anymo/

US consumers can only blame themselves for the lack of wagon options in the US. 

[macrojack]

I see this as yet another case of the intelligent few being damaged by the stupid many. All too often when the free market speaks, I don't like what it's saying. And I know I'm not alone in this. There are frequent complaints on this site about what the masses have done to music reproduction and selection. Too bad the damn world is run by MBAs and policed by lawyers.

Little wagons are still available though. I have a Toyota Matrix that serves pretty well. It has luxury features but, alas, is not very luxurious. It's too light and probably too small for Mike Galusha sized people.

Since the vast majority of Americans are unforgivably and irredeemably stupid, we are that their mercy in a system dominated by an impressionable majority. I offer "Light Beer" as the ultimate proof of my assertion.

[ptmconsulting]

I saw a quote not so long ago that seems relevant. Not sure who to attribute it to (so I'll take credit if you wish)

"Newly minted MBA's are all about reducing overhead and maximizing cost effectiveness. Experienced managers are all about maximizing customer satisfaction."

One results in short term profitability. The other results in the long term growth of a company and its products.

[TheChairGuy]

15 months with my 2008 SAAB 9-3 AERO SportCombi (man, quite a mouthful!) and I really do like it.

The seats are uber-comfy even on 7 hour drives to LA and San Diego from here and while the materials on the dash, doors, headliner, etc are not the highest quality....everything in the interior is simple to use and exudes warmth of environment.  Safety is a given with SAAB, and it got 28.5mpg at 70mph + on the last long drive to Ojai.

This is the best car we've owned since my '91 VW GTI - WAAAY better than the wife's 2004 BMW 325Ci convertible...which is underpowered and has cowl shakes at 60K miles that aren't in keeping with the premium price tag BMW fetches.  I drove several examples of 2008 3-series wagon and felt it was smallish, harsh riding (run flats - urgh!) and, whether it was the sport or non-sport package, had so-so seats. It did handle great, tho.

Man, if you cannot sit in comfy seats, the rest of the vehicle is mostly trash to me.  For $30K+, comfy seats are simply a must.

Now that SAAB is kaput, I've seen brand new AERO SportCombi's (with 4 cylinder motors that get much better mileage and handle better as they are lighter and less nose heavy) for low $20K range.  This is a $36,000 vehicle loaded up. if you're a technology lover, go elsewhere as it pales next to Infiniti and others today.  If you're not so tech-directed, just get an extended warranty from Warranty Direct for $3K and for something around $25K your stylin'

macrojack - seriously - EVERYONE is stupid but you?  I'd love to hear the sum total of your life's brilliant decisions to compare and contrast with.  I'm certain it would be....riveting 

[macrojack]

I saw a quote not so long ago that seems relevant. Not sure who to attribute it to (so I'll take credit if you wish)

"Newly minted MBA's are all about reducing overhead and maximizing cost effectiveness. Experienced managers are all about maximizing customer satisfaction."

One results in short term profitability. The other results in the long term growth of a company and its products.

And one fires the other in the interest of short term profits. Headlong we go down the rabbit hole of greed.

[JohnR]

I don't suppose it's just possible to enjoy a hobby for a change?

[macrojack]

15 months with my 2008 SAAB 9-3 AERO SportCombi (man, quite a mouthful!) and I really do like it.

The seats are uber-comfy even on 7 hour drives to LA and San Diego from here and while the materials on the dash, doors, headliner, etc are not the highest quality....everything in the interior is simple to use and exudes warmth of environment.  Safety is a given with SAAB, and it got 28.5mpg at 70mph + on the last long drive to Ojai.

This is the best car we've owned since my '91 VW GTI - WAAAY better than the wife's 2004 BMW 325Ci convertible...which is underpowered and has cowl shakes at 60K miles that aren't in keeping with the premium price tag BMW fetches.  I drove several examples of 2008 3-series wagon and felt it was smallish, harsh riding (run flats - urgh!) and, whether it was the sport or non-sport package, had so-so seats. It did handle great, tho.

Man, if you cannot sit in comfy seats, the rest of the vehicle is mostly trash to me.  For $30K+, comfy seats are simply a must.

Now that SAAB is kaput, I've seen brand new AERO SportCombi's (with 4 cylinder motors that get much better mileage and handle better as they are lighter and less nose heavy) for low $20K range.  This is a $36,000 vehicle loaded up. if you're a technology lover, go elsewhere as it pales next to Infiniti and others today.  If you're not so tech-directed, just get an extended warranty from Warranty Direct for $3K and for something around $25K your stylin'

macrojack - seriously - EVERYONE is stupid but you?  I'd love to hear the sum total of your life's brilliant decisions to compare and contrast with.  I'm certain it would be....riveting 

C'mon, John - I can't give you exact figures but I know there is a significant quantitative difference between "vast majority" which I did say and "EVERYONE" which I did not say.

My best decisions were sobering up about 32 years ago, marrying my wife 22 years ago, and retiring 3 years ago. Nothing remarkable this week.