CD player advances?

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neobop

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Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #40 on: 10 Jan 2012, 12:44 pm »
Cannot comment about the Modwright Sony.  However, the Modwright Oppo BD-83SE Nuforce is a truly remarkable unit.  We compared it to a lot of CD players, DAC's, etc, and the Modwright Oppo was a lot better in all cases.  That unit is so good, that I sent in my BD-95 for the tube upgrade. 

There is a synergy with the Oppo units and Dan's upgrades that exceeds the sum of the parts.

Who's we?
Do you have a financial interest here?
Thanks,

Freo-1

Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #41 on: 10 Jan 2012, 09:26 pm »
Who's we?
Do you have a financial interest here?
Thanks,

"We" is referring to some of my fellow audio guys locally.  One of them is very experienced with this field, and has a wealth of knowledge with all kinds of systems.  He has made amps, preamps,  retores/upgrades amps/speakers, etc., and is in high demnd for his services.

Regarding the other issue, rather silly question to ask, don't you reckon?   Of course, the answer is NO!

Every once in a while, an audio component comes along that really moves the ball far down the field, and it's performance far exceeds the cost.  That is the case here.

Mitsuman

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Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #42 on: 10 Jan 2012, 10:59 pm »
Glad you said "nearly".

 :lol:

I'm in the opposite boat, I find nearly every cheap BD/DVD player unlistenable for music and would gladly take a 10 year old flagship.

WERD!  :thumb:

neobop

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Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #43 on: 11 Jan 2012, 12:08 am »
"We" is referring to some of my fellow audio guys locally.  One of them is very experienced with this field, and has a wealth of knowledge with all kinds of systems.  He has made amps, preamps,  retores/upgrades amps/speakers, etc., and is in high demnd for his services.

Regarding the other issue, rather silly question to ask, don't you reckon?   Of course, the answer is NO!

Every once in a while, an audio component comes along that really moves the ball far down the field, and it's performance far exceeds the cost.  That is the case here.

Why is that a silly question, if you did have a financial interest in promoting this you probably wouldn't admit it?

A quick search of the model revealed your review in at least one other forum and I was just wondering. It's not unheard of to promote a product in such a manner. That's why you sometimes see statements about no personal interest or disclaimers by dealers. It's a perfectly legitimate question. No offense meant.

I obviously haven't heard this unit. Your enthusiastic description seems overly optimistic?  It corrects crappy sounding digital recordings and makes them great, or it sounds so good with a handful of digital recordings that you use as a reference? Excuse me for being skeptical, but other Modwright units aren't considered the last word in digital playback. Could it be that the configuration with this unit has a synergy with your system that seems to make it extra special? Throw a couple of tubes on the output stage and it's like magic? I'll look into it a little more. Maybe you can tell us what, exactly, makes this so great.


Freo-1

Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #44 on: 11 Jan 2012, 01:27 am »
Why is that a silly question, if you did have a financial interest in promoting this you probably wouldn't admit it?

A quick search of the model revealed your review in at least one other forum and I was just wondering. It's not unheard of to promote a product in such a manner. That's why you sometimes see statements about no personal interest or disclaimers by dealers. It's a perfectly legitimate question. No offense meant.

I obviously haven't heard this unit. Your enthusiastic description seems overly optimistic?  It corrects crappy sounding digital recordings and makes them great, or it sounds so good with a handful of digital recordings that you use as a reference? Excuse me for being skeptical, but other Modwright units aren't considered the last word in digital playback. Could it be that the configuration with this unit has a synergy with your system that seems to make it extra special? Throw a couple of tubes on the output stage and it's like magic? I'll look into it a little more. Maybe you can tell us what, exactly, makes this so great.



Since you explained why you asked about the financial interest, no offense taken.  I was not sure where you were coming from.

Yes, it does seem that the review is very positive.  That is because the unit has a sonic presentation that far exceeds the cost.  I have heard a LOT of high end rigs over the years, and try to keep up with the advances as they occur.  For many years, I was a vinyl enthusiast for high end sound.  The vinyl setups I have owned were pretty expensive, and included gear from Audio Research, Threshold, SOTA, SME, Grado Reference, etc.  However as my tastes in music gravitated towards classical, started to like vinyl less and less.  This is when I started looking into digital as a serious alterative. 

Until the last few years, would have concurred that vinyl would provide the most satisfying musical performance.  Over the years, tried most of the better digital playback rigs, and was never quite happy with them.  More recently, some of the better digital playback devices have gotten pretty darn close to vinyl, while having the advantages of lack of noise, etc. 

When I obtained  the Oppo Modwright BD-83SE Nuforce (second-hand), I was amazed that it sounded so good.  After comparing the Oppo to the Eastern Electric Mini Max DAC, it was readily apparent that the Modwright provided a better overall performance.  It has an open, clear presentation that I had not heard from any other but the very best digital playback setups.  I attribute that to the modifications Modwright makes to the I/V and analog output stages.  The 32 SABRE DAC’s are a top performer, some of the best digital filtering I’ve heard.  I tried this on both the HT rig and the audio only rig, and the performance was noticeable on both.

Based on this, sent the BD-95 to Modwright for the tube upgrade.  Once the unit was returned, started listening and comparing.  Music that I am very familiar with (with both vinyl and digital) played back through the BD-95 had a natural clarity and details presented that I had previously not heard before on the recordings (and these are performances I’ve heard MANY times).  In some cases, low level string passages suddenly had what seemed like extra instruments that previously were not there.  The truly remarkable aspect of this is the timbres sound natural (life like) with no hint of distortion or artifacts.  It is, without question, the best digital playback unit I’ve ever heard.  It has the feel of good vinyl, but better, as there is no noise, pops, clicks, or other artifacts to deal with.

A poorly mixed CD still sounds poor, but less objectionable.  Where the unit REALLY shines is with a well mastered CD, DVD or SACD recordings.  It seems like you are listening to the original reference. 

I did not appreciate just (how much) the front end (source) can improve the system as a whole.  It is a greater improvement than I would have thought possible.  Since the improvement can be heard on two different systems, it’s not just a system synergy issue per se. 

The best way to sort this out for yourself is to find one and listen for yourself. 

neobop

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Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #45 on: 11 Jan 2012, 03:38 am »
I did look into it a little. You have to buy an Oppo 95 Blue ray player, around $1100 - 1200, then send it in for mods. Little did I know, there is a Modwright circle here and consensus seems to be that the Mod-Oppo 95 sounds better playing files than discs, even when the file comes from a ripped disc. 
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91731.120

My guess is that transport damping and jitter reduction only go so far and that it's the DAC and output stage that makes the difference. I also think that John our moderator has it ass backwards. A $60 player isn't going to have high quality transport let alone advanced conversion/correction. John, I thought your post which mentioned Dakiom Star Trek thingies, was a sarcastic joke. Please tell me I was right the first time.

It looks like Astronaut Glen has the right idea about PC based digital music. What I find a little disconcerting about this whole thing, is attitudes. I happen to like records and record players. Some people seem to put up with it and would ditch the whole thing in a heartbeat, if it were viable. This gives tacit approval for obnoxious comments about clicks and record noise, like we haven't heard enough of that comment lately. Most of my records are dead quiet. I don't mind an occasional click. It reminds me of reality, even seems endearing. Luckily, there are enough vinyl enthusiasts now, that we'll keep going for awhile. In the future some of us will be like grandpa in the basement with his model trains, only with record players.  Funny how that notion keeps getting put back a decade or three. It's been 30 yrs and still no perfect sound forever. I'm confident that if you have a crappy sounding disc, rip it, play it back through whatever, it will still be crap.

Mitsuman

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Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #46 on: 11 Jan 2012, 01:36 pm »
I did look into it a little. You have to buy an Oppo 95 Blue ray player, around $1100 - 1200, then send it in for mods. Little did I know, there is a Modwright circle here and consensus seems to be that the Mod-Oppo 95 sounds better playing files than discs, even when the file comes from a ripped disc. 
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91731.120

My guess is that transport damping and jitter reduction only go so far and that it's the DAC and output stage that makes the difference. I also think that John our moderator has it ass backwards. A $60 player isn't going to have high quality transport let alone advanced conversion/correction. John, I thought your post which mentioned Dakiom Star Trek thingies, was a sarcastic joke. Please tell me I was right the first time.

It looks like Astronaut Glen has the right idea about PC based digital music. What I find a little disconcerting about this whole thing, is attitudes. I happen to like records and record players. Some people seem to put up with it and would ditch the whole thing in a heartbeat, if it were viable. This gives tacit approval for obnoxious comments about clicks and record noise, like we haven't heard enough of that comment lately. Most of my records are dead quiet. I don't mind an occasional click. It reminds me of reality, even seems endearing. Luckily, there are enough vinyl enthusiasts now, that we'll keep going for awhile. In the future some of us will be like grandpa in the basement with his model trains, only with record players.  Funny how that notion keeps getting put back a decade or three. It's been 30 yrs and still no perfect sound forever. I'm confident that if you have a crappy sounding disc, rip it, play it back through whatever, it will still be crap.

Bravo Neo! I know we've not always agreed with each other, over 2 different forums,  :D  but I couldn't have said that better myself. :beer:

TheChairGuy

Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #47 on: 11 Jan 2012, 01:40 pm »
Nope, no joke, the Dakiom thingees have benefitted 4 different digital players thus far (along with an isolation transformer).  It benefitted each player less as they became newer - indicating that some part of the digital evolution seems to be the taming of negative artifacts that come bundled with feedback in these units.

Nonetheless, they work as claimed to me - I only wish Dr. Dao would tame the crazy rhetoric and allow folks to make an informed opinion on them.

Btw, I've heard the Modwright BD-83 - at least two times now (I think it more like 3) all at shows.  While shows are pretty difficult to assess the value of each component 'cause of unfamiliarity and you usually don't have A vs. B choices as options to hear each component contribution to the whole....the 2 or 3 rooms were among the most gratifying at the shows.

The OPPO BD-95 starts life out as better sonically with ESS Sabre 32bit and custom Rotel dual wound tranny among other upgrades....I imagine the addition of well regulated tube output sounds pretty dang good.

The best sonic presestation of the players I have hear now is that of a (portable) $60 COBY DVD player, with a 12V regulated outboard power supply, the Dakioms and isolation tranny.  It's a manual, top loader - the simplest kind of 'transport' really - and probably the best sonically for it.  I'd like to measure its jitter as it sounds more fluent than any of the front pullout transport units I previously owned.

I call 'em as I hear 'em and remain open to a world of ideas out there.  I'd love to ditch vinyl, in whole or part, but the music simply remains more vibrant on my vinyl systems over digital.  But, I find the differences skinnying up as digital gets better and cheaper and my hearing acuity fades with age  :(

John

doug s.

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Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #48 on: 11 Jan 2012, 04:36 pm »
john/tcg - if your cheap coby player has digital out (the dvd209 does - no longer made, afaik, but still f/s for <$30), go out and get yourself a dac, feed it w/an isolation transformer as well, and you will take your cd audio up another notch or seven.  i, of course, recommend finding an art di/o dac, but these have been out of production a long time, and are hard to find.  there are others out there as well, that would suffice.  i have read good things about modded zhaolu dacs; those would also be worth looking into.  my experience w/my modded art di/o has been that transport price is not wery important. i had great results with, among other things, a used 5-disc cd changer w/some p/s mods that cost me all of $80 on the used market...

doug s.

TheChairGuy

Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #49 on: 11 Jan 2012, 07:38 pm »
john/tcg - if your cheap coby player has digital out (the dvd209 does - no longer made, afaik, but still f/s for <$30), go out and get yourself a dac, feed it w/an isolation transformer as well, and you will take your cd audio up another notch or seven.  i, of course, recommend finding an art di/o dac, but these have been out of production a long time, and are hard to find.  there are others out there as well, that would suffice.  i have read good things about modded zhaolu dacs; those would also be worth looking into.  my experience w/my modded art di/o has been that transport price is not wery important. i had great results with, among other things, a used 5-disc cd changer w/some p/s mods that cost me all of $80 on the used market...

doug s.

Doug: Amazingly, the cheap POS COBY has both rca digital and optical line outs for use with outboard DAC  :o

btw: this is the COBY which is on Overstock.com at $69.99 today.  I tried another 12v (mobile-oriented) COBY about a year after I bought this one and it sounded lousy and broke within 3 months of sporadic use.  So, not all COBY's are cheapo wunderkinds I can assure you all.  http://www.overstock.com/Electronics/Coby-DVD-707-Portable-12V-Compact-DVD-Player/567683/product.html

I think the one that broke on me was the DVD209 from COBY (it was on sale at Office Depot for like $49.99 and I bought it)

I bought it originally as an experiment on regulated 12v power sources and turned out to sound stellar (I sold a $5000 fully modded Sony transport & MSB Gold Link III DAC soon after as it turned it into irrelevant and horribly overpriced.  I also used to do business in NYC with Danny Lee, the Korean (and his brother) that started Cowboy Electronics (which morphed into COBY Electronics) back in ~ 1987/88 and I wanted to see what type of shit they were peddling in 2007 when I bought it :lol:

Turns out damn decent in this case, but it's more a fluke than anything else I think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coby_Electronics_Corporation

The two best DAC's I have heard recently for somewhat sane money is the Benchmark (it gets the rap for being too clinical - but, it might just be that digital ain't that pretty without tube taming in the line) and the Neko Audio DAC 100 MK II.  Both merited wowza's from me when heard at shows.

But, I digress, if I am going to move on from my wee COBY I probably want something with DVD-A and Blu-ray capabilities to take advantage of those formats.  I have a $299.00 Cambridge DVD/CD/SACD/DVD-A player sitting idle as, even with the isotranny and Dakioms on it, doesn't sound as good as the wee COBY on CD playback.

So, I'm probably OPPO 95 bound when all the smoke clears and I finally make a decision.  First things first and I'm going to get a top notch equipment shelf as that'll help all components equally.  Then, I'll see how far into fiscal stoopidness :wink: I need to go on my digital front end to be satisfied.

John

SteveFord

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Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #50 on: 12 Jan 2012, 02:58 am »
Speaking of Oppos and cheap universal players, I spent tonight fooling around with an old cheapie 980 and a couple of DACs (DougS' art di/o and a Pacific Valve with current production JJ Teslas) and I think that the fine folks at Oppo deserve a lot more credit than they seem to get.
That Oppo/Pacific Valve combination works really well with the wife's little MMGs.  CDs currently sound better on the MMGs than on the 3.7 system SO tomorrow night some experimentation is in order.
Everything might fall flat on it's face with the big ones, though, but I did stumble upon a winning combination for the small speakers.
Enough for one day - I spent 4 hours tube rolling and swapping junk around and it's time to hit the sack. 
These stupid CDs are going to drive me to drink.

SteveFord

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Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #51 on: 14 Jan 2012, 06:22 pm »
After spending who knows how much time on this idiotic quest I found the CD player which Magnepan 3.7s like best by a mile.

Pink Floyd's "Meddle" at 7AM this morning was an eye opener.  Especially for my wife who was trying to sleep.
One of these days she's going to cut me into little pieces.






SteveFord

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Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #52 on: 29 Jan 2012, 10:25 pm »
One final note: today the wife and I went and auditioned an Audio Research CD5 player run into an AR LS27 run into a monster $13,000 AR amp through Magnepan 3.7s and it was better than the digital I have at home at the moment but not by leaps and bounds. 
Even an inexpensive turntable/cartridge/phono stage gave it a run for the money without making my ears feel clogged up which the CDs do.
Thanks to everyone here for your help and especially to doug s. for lending me his art di/o to do some comparisons with and make an informed decision.

doug s.

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Re: CD player advances?
« Reply #53 on: 30 Jan 2012, 07:26 am »
One final note: today the wife and I went and auditioned an Audio Research CD5 player run into an AR LS27 run into a monster $13,000 AR amp through Magnepan 3.7s and it was better than the digital I have at home at the moment but not by leaps and bounds. 
Even an inexpensive turntable/cartridge/phono stage gave it a run for the money without making my ears feel clogged up which the CDs do.
Thanks to everyone here for your help and especially to doug s. for lending me his art di/o to do some comparisons with and make an informed decision.
a pleasure to help.   :thumb:

and, if you had the dac plugged into an isolation transformer, the differences would have been even less.   8)

doug s.