Pre-Amp or Dac-Pre

mav52 · « **on:** 25 Dec 2011, 04:48 pm »

Not sure which circle to put this. I'm looking to add a new pre-amp to my 2chl system in my study since my last one, died last week. I was thinking about a DAC-Pre amp combination instead of a pre-amp something on the lines of Benchmark DAC1 or AVA Vison DAC Pre paired with my Vincent SP331Mk. My source is a Rega Apollo player. Any suggestions or comments on the plus or minus of my thought process.

JLM · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 12:58 am »

Combined DAC/pre and DAC/integrated are becoming popular related to PC/Mac/music server sources.

I wouldn't bother with the Apollo unless you're sure the DAC would be an upgrade.

Separates offer flexibility, but cost more and adds wires/complexity. In my case the flexibility allows for inclusion of a equalizer.

mav52 · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 01:46 pm »

JLM . I need my Apollo CD player to play the CD's.. My old NAD pre-amp died. So instead of just buying a "pre-amp" I was looking at the DAC pre's like the ones noted to interface my CD player to the amp and control my volume, bass, treble.

opnly bafld · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 02:03 pm »

I think what JLM meant is the extra cost of a built in dac may be a waste of money unless it betters the dac in the Rega, in other words use the very good dac in the Apollo and buy a preamp of equal (or better) quality for less money.

mav52 · « **Reply #4 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 04:50 pm »

Now I understand what JLM said. Thank you for the clarification. The DAC in the Apollo uses a Wolfson WM874024bit DAC so it appears I'm not getting anything any better that I could actually hear the difference.

wilsynet · « **Reply #5 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 05:00 pm »

What's your total budget?

JLM · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 07:17 pm »

Yes, IMO the Apollo would need an expensive DAC to make a significant improvement.

That's what I get for posting while watching TV.

wilsynet · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 07:32 pm »

Most good preamps that I'm familiar with don't have treble and bass controls. But as I was saying, it would be useful to understand what the budget might be.

avta · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 07:41 pm »

Burson makes a well reviewed DAC/pre that has digital and line level inputs. you might check that out.

mav52 · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 08:00 pm »

From $500 up to $1500 is my budget. I've also looked at the newer version of Cambridge's DacMagic Plus, and for a regular preamp the Parasound Halo P7

wilsynet · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 09:09 pm »

To the best of my knowledge, the DACs on the market today that include preamp functions (not to be confused with preamps that have a DAC as an option) are nothing more than analog pass-thru with a volume pot. Which is to say, they function as a DAC with a built-in passive.

Whether your system is well suited to be driven by a passive preamp would be hard to say, but off hand, the Apollo's 600 ohm output impedance does not make such a configuration a slam dunk.

As for DACs that market a preamp stage with gain, I have generally found that active preamps are hard to make well as it is, nevermind including such a thing as an afterthought.

The AVA Vision DAC/Preamp is an active preamplifier with a built-in DAC. They generally have a good reputation and my strong suspicion is that as a preamp it will be heads and shoulders better then the NAD. As for the DAC, hard to say. I bet the Apollo already sounds pretty darn good.

wilsynet · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 09:21 pm »

Personally, for that coin, I'd get a pre-built Warpspeed LDR passive and an Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Plus. Some opamp rolling for $100 more and I bet you're in a pretty good place.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Dec 2011, 11:55 pm »

You might consider the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 D/A Converter. As noted above, just a passive pre volume pot, but you do get a tube buffer added in. And the price is right at $350.

mav52 · « **Reply #13 on:** 27 Dec 2011, 05:29 am »

thank you for the suggestions... Are there disadvantages of a DAC-Pre as far as quality as compared to a really good pre-amp

drjjpdc · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Dec 2011, 09:01 pm »

Tell you what if I was starting all over again and did not want to go the separate route for a while, this baby would be tough to resist!

I mean 120 wpc, dac, mm phono, usb.. all in one box for less than $2K street! Talk about convenience.

http://www.belcantodesign.com/Belcanto_C5i_DAC_Integrated_Amplifier.html#

douglesc · « **Reply #15 on:** 31 Dec 2011, 10:22 am »

Just to mention a somewhat affordable preamp dac...........would be the New Classe CP800......Classe is saying it is there best Preamp ever, a pretty big statement, and it includes a dac, a Wolfson 8741. Wolfson's best dac. I have not heard it but the reports look great. It costs 5k which is not cheap but better than many. Don't expect solid state to sound like tubes, it is ultra clean, I would love to hear it.

http://www.classeaudio.com/delta/delta-cp800.htm

JLM · « **Reply #16 on:** 2 Jan 2012, 02:03 am »

Sorry for not mentioning it before, but the Jaton RC2000P is a pre-amp with subwoofer management and DAC. It's well built with high-end parts in the USA. Check with John Casler here at A.C. for good pricing, including for factory "B" stock.

I use the Jaton (after 40 years in audio, my 1st pre-amp). I have a very nice DAC (the EE dac didn't beat it out, so I sold it), so have never brothered listening to it (sorry). It basically adds no sound per se, but did add a bit a image depth versus stepped attentuators. Reviews compare it to $3,000 units.

Diamond Dog · « **Reply #17 on:** 2 Jan 2012, 03:06 am »

Quote from: mav52 on 27 Dec 2011, 05:29 am

thank you for the suggestions... Are there disadvantages of a DAC-Pre as far as quality as compared to a really good pre-amp

Hi : I've been using the attenuation feature on my K-03 for the first time and driving my amps directly for a few days until I get an issue with my main preamp rectified. It is fine in terms of detail but to my ear, I find the soundstage is compressed in terms of width, height and depth compared to what I'm used to. I pulled out an old Sumo Athena preamp that I haven't used for a few years and set it up in the system just to see how it would compare. It does put some meat on the bones of the sound in comparison to running direct to the amps. I don't know if that is typical but I sure hear the difference in my little land of milk and honey here.

D.D.

JLM · « **Reply #18 on:** 2 Jan 2012, 02:29 pm »

I like simplier/cheaper but DAC technology is changing so quickly I'd be hesitant to tie it to other pieces.

I admit doing exactly that with the EE dac but it was only a passive attenuator and a popular piece that I was able to flip for nearly what I had invested in it.

And I admit to doing it again with the Jaton, but to me it's DAC is almost a throw away, a backup, something that I might use for low resolution sources. The rest of the Jaton is plenty good enough to earn a place in my system, especially for the price I paid.

cliffy · « **Reply #19 on:** 2 Jan 2012, 04:49 pm »

RE: Jaton RC-2000P.

If anyone is interested in a non-Dac Pre-amp, I have the Jaton RC-2000P that I used for less than a year that I would sell for $500 + shipping.

I needed more inputs and ended up finding a Bryston SP2.

I also have a Sherbourn PRE-1 pre-amp (no DAC) that was only used for a couple of months. Price around $350 + shipping.

Both units are located in SF Bay Area (94552).

Happy New Year!

Pre-Amp or Dac-Pre

drjjpdc