HighEnd Usb cabling?

Marius · « **on:** 11 Dec 2011, 10:17 pm »

Hi James, all,

What to think of this HighEnd USB cable theory? My dealer told me that to his astonishment AudioQuests USB cables did sound a lot better than the standard USb cables. Wirewold sells this theory:
http://www.wireworldcable.com/categories/usb_cables.html and in the Absolute Cable Buyers guide you can see them http://www.avguide.com/buyers-guide/the-absolute-soundhi-fi-guide-cables-power-products-accessories-and-music-2011 and a great many others. I ve got a AudioQuest Forest to test, but would like your thoughts about the above first, before going through the trouble of it all.

In my setting, I would use the Higher End Usb between my Mac and the USB on the BDA1. I haven't seen any USb for the HDD's to connect to the BDP1, or has anyone?

Thanks Marius

JfTM · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Dec 2011, 11:19 pm »

Interesting theory (wireworld). Wonder why they didn't include a scan of the rounding effect, or measurements of the reduced jitter?

Marius · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Dec 2011, 11:27 pm »

yep, I always wonder if the proclaimed effects can be measured and shown, or whether it is an 'in between the ears' effect.
then again, these standard USb cables do feel kind cheap and flimsy...

Marius

Quote from: JfTM on 11 Dec 2011, 11:19 pm

Interesting theory (wireworld). Wonder why they didn't include a scan of the rounding effect, or measurements of the reduced jitter?

SHV · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 01:29 am »

"proclaimed effects can be measured and shown, or whether it is an 'in between the ears' effect..."
*******
or perhaps it's an "in the wallet" effect. Wire has about the highest profit margin of any "audio" product. Even Best Buy tries to push Monster Cable with a modest purchase. On second thought rubber and wood isolation products may be higher profit.

Steve

SHV · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 04:23 am »

Quote from: wywires on 12 Dec 2011, 03:32 am

So Steve, What is a fair margin in your opinion? Dealer Margin, Distributor Margin, Manufacturer's Margin. I'd really like to know.

Thanks Much

I assume that few audio "wire" makers actually draw their own wire, make connectors, etc. so from assembler to customer via a traditional distribution chain, my guess is that 500-600% would be fair. However, I am very receptive to being educated to the realities of the business.

Steve

Steve

skunark · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 04:48 am »

Both of those links are discussing USB DACs, not a USB HDD cable.

Stick with the USB cable that came with your HDD as it meets all specifications by the HDD manufacturer. The files on the HDD is not even unpacked or even PCM data yet, so various USB cables would not influence the audio bitstream. Jitter, noise, etc, will be introduced when the data hits the sound card and converted to a PCM stream.

If you have a self-powered (vs bus-powered) and can hear a difference using a thumb drive vs the HDD, you might consider looking for a better power supply.

Feel free to read about USB's isochronous and bulk transfers, not to mention file systems and how Linux deals with it.

Jim

werd · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 04:50 am »

Quote from: skunark on 12 Dec 2011, 04:48 am

Both of those links are discussing USB DACs, not a USB HDD cable.

Stick with the USB cable that came with your HDD as it meets all specifications by the HDD manufacturer. The files on the HDD is not even unpacked or even PCM data yet, so various USB cables would not influence the audio bitstream. Jitter, noise, etc, will be introduced when the data hits the sound card and converted to a PCM stream.

If you have a self-powered (vs bus-powered) and can hear a difference using a thumb drive vs the HDD, you might consider looking for a better power supply.

Feel free to read about USB's isochronous and bulk transfers, not to mention file systems and how Linux deals with it.

Jim

Naaah.

srb · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 05:36 am »

Quote from: skunark on 12 Dec 2011, 04:48 am

The files on the HDD is not even unpacked or even PCM data yet, so various USB cables would not influence the audio bitstream. Jitter, noise, etc, will be introduced when the data hits the sound card and converted to a PCM stream.

Finally an intelligent voice of reason. Hearing how an expensive USB hard drive cable gives the music a blacker background, 3D soundstage and or more bass has got to be the largest pile of hooey ever foisted upon the audio public to date.

Steve

skunark · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 07:18 am »

Quote from: srb on 12 Dec 2011, 05:36 am

Finally an intelligent voice of reason. Hearing how an expensive USB hard drive cable gives the music a blacker background, 3D soundstage and or more bass has got to be the largest pile of hooey ever foisted upon the audio public to date.

Steve

Marius · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 07:24 am »

Hi Skunark,

Ill stick with my hdd cables reading your post. What about the USB interface on the BDP1 to a computer, a Mac in my case? Same theory? This is where my dealer gave me the AudioGuest Forest.

Marius

Quote from: skunark on 12 Dec 2011, 04:48 am

Both of those links are discussing USB DACs, not a USB HDD cable.

Stick with the USB cable that came with your HDD as it meets all specifications by the HDD manufacturer. The files on the HDD is not even unpacked or even PCM data yet, so various USB cables would not influence the audio bitstream. Jitter, noise, etc, will be introduced when the data hits the sound card and converted to a PCM stream.

If you have a self-powered (vs bus-powered) and can hear a difference using a thumb drive vs the HDD, you might consider looking for a better power supply.

Feel free to read about USB's isochronous and bulk transfers, not to mention file systems and how Linux deals with it.

Jim

skunark · « **Reply #10 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 08:07 am »

Yup, stick with the manufacture's provided USB cable for the HDD. Also keep in mind that HDD's have much faster data-rate than a USB DAC, so again keeping the cable within the HDD manufacturer's specification is important if you need a longer cable or a replacement.

Jim

budt · « **Reply #11 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 08:12 am »

Well I run mostly bluejean cables and all stock power cords in my system which consists of B&W 800 diamonds,Meitner MA-1 dac, bryston bp26 and a pair of 7b sst2 . I tried the relatively cheap $50 kimber usb cable and it was quite easy to tell the difference over the $5 stock one. I don't believe I would have any problem identifying it in a blind test. I don't know if there is any audible difference between a $1000 one and the kimber but there certainly was between the relatively cheap kimber and the generic.

skunark · « **Reply #12 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 08:46 am »

You are talking about a USB DAC not a USB HDD. Different implementations uses different USB transfer mechanisms which the BDP is using USB HDD so it's a very reliable bulk transfer where jitter does come into play until the output stage. A USB DAC uses an unreliable isochronous transfer where it's source-synchronous and jitter can come into play.

Marius · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 10:41 am »

Hi Skunark,

The reason I asked was my Audioquest cable was meant for connecting the USB input on the BDA1 to my sound-out in the Macbook. So not for HDD to BDP1.
Not worth it you think? Or a different matter and worth the try?

Marius

Quote from: skunark on 12 Dec 2011, 08:46 am

You are talking about a USB DAC not a USB HDD. Different implementations uses different USB transfer mechanisms which the BDP is using USB HDD so it's a very reliable bulk transfer where jitter does come into play until the output stage. A USB DAC uses an unreliable isochronous transfer where it's source-synchronous and jitter can come into play.

Anonamemouse · « **Reply #14 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 12:19 pm »

A review (in Dutch) on USB cables.

http://www.alpha-audio.nl/2011/06/de-usb-kabelmythe/

I agree with the guy.

Marius · « **Reply #15 on:** 12 Dec 2011, 01:28 pm »

Thanks, Anonamemouse,

I'll take the Audioquest back to my dealer and give him this link to think about.

3 extra downloads to go now

Marius

Quote from: Anonamemouse on 12 Dec 2011, 12:19 pm

A review (in Dutch) on USB cables.

http://www.alpha-audio.nl/2011/06/de-usb-kabelmythe/

I agree with the guy.

skunark · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Dec 2011, 02:58 am »

Quote from: Marius on 12 Dec 2011, 10:41 am

Hi Skunark,

The reason I asked was my Audioquest cable was meant for connecting the USB input on the BDA1 to my sound-out in the Macbook. So not for HDD to BDP1.
Not worth it you think? Or a different matter and worth the try?

Marius

The thought with USB Cables for USB DACs is that they can influence the jitter on the older synchronous DACs. There's probably some truth to that with DACs that did a poor job recreating the clock with the Start-of-frame packet. This is also probably the case with the BDA since the DAC is older and only supports at most 48/24 music and uses USB1.1. This shouldn't be a case with asynchronous and adaptive DACs since both reclock the PCM stream.

Unless the DAC came with a USB cable, you probably still need one and $50 USB is high IMO, but not in the unreasonable range.
I would probably buy one for that price if it matches the looks of my other cables (and if I didn't keep my gear behind a door). I used to keep a mini-toslink cable for the occasional need to connect up a laptop, now I just use a thumb-drive on the BDP-1 or BDP-95

.

My experience with USB DACs have been less than positive, so of course you can "pick your poison" on why: computer, dac, cable, software, driver setting, power conditioning, 32 vs 64-bit OS, USB Port, and .... Or just avoid them like I do. If the BDA is your USB DAC, I would say you could do better with the mini-toslink, and you can probably hit at least 96/24 before the Mac OS blocks you (check your midi settings).

BTW: Anonamenmouse's link is a good read and should be an eye-opener for most, but sadly they didn't measure the jitter on the output of the DAC to compare each cable. They also didn't report the system used in the blind test, but since it didn't sound different, someone would question one or more of the items I listed above. Since it sounded the same, what level will the USB DAC make a difference....

budt · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Dec 2011, 03:48 am »

Quote from: wywires on 13 Dec 2011, 03:37 am

Look at the title of the article...Clearly, this asshole has no clue what he is talking about. The differences in USB cables is huge and even more than any other cable. The complexities of USB cable design are mind boggling and the USB standards body has only scratched the surface, barely!

Just take a deep breath.No need to get all upset .

srb · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Dec 2011, 04:12 am »

Quote from: wywires on 13 Dec 2011, 03:37 am

Look at the title of the article...Clearly, this asshole has no clue what he is talking about. The differences in USB cables is huge and even more than any other cable. The complexities of USB cable design are mind boggling and the USB standards body has only scratched the surface, barely!

Quote from: wywires on 13 Dec 2011, 03:55 am

Not upset...Our Dutch myth buster just touched a nerve with no real information just bullshit opinion to expound some stupid agenda.

You sell USB cables, so that is your agenda.

The author likely doesn't have a dog in this race. Perhaps you disagree with what he is saying, but the fact that you called him an "asshole" and proclaimed his analysis "bullshit" are not virtues that many admire in AudioCircle vendors.

Steve

Marius · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Dec 2011, 06:11 am »

HI Wywires,

Since you apparently disagree with the 'analysis' of the USB-Myth, could you provide us with measurements instead of rather subjective 'audio-listening experiences'? Some 'real information'?
I would like to receive some sort of convincing evidence this Myth is nonsense, and I would hope you could provide us with that?

Thanks,
Marius

Quote from: wywires on 13 Dec 2011, 03:37 am

Look at the title of the article...Clearly, this asshole has no clue what he is talking about. The differences in USB cables is huge and even more than any other cable. The complexities of USB cable design are mind boggling and the USB standards body has only scratched the surface, barely!