HighEnd Usb cabling?

jaapnr1 · « **Reply #40 on:** 13 Dec 2011, 06:43 pm »

Quote from: werd on 13 Dec 2011, 06:23 pm

I am referring to measuring as a method of dis-proving diffences as a constant nagging theme. Unlike what you are saying here.

I found the best thing the bdp taught me was the whole notion of the "Starting Gate component in digital playback" The bdp when used with a usb sticks is an excellent eg. of an actually point where playback begins. If you use a HDD into the bdp the HDD has now become the starting gate. Only because now you have to deal with noise coming off the HDD through the AC and in the air. This is where i found improvements with usb cabling. I went from a lousy 3 dollar usb to a relatively inexpensive wireworld usb (under a $100.00) that actually cleaned up some very nagging noise between my 500gb Hd and my bdp.

The bdp is pure a luxury item in file playback for that reason. It really makes file playback easy and you are not going to get any better with any HDD then just a straight usb stick. I don't want a build a noiseless file delivery system with a huge HDD. It can be done but for me i don't see the point.

I hope you understand how file transfer via usb actually works. It's a bulk-protocol with crc-checking. Nothing can go wrong with that, because of the crc-checking. If the check and error correction wasn't there files could get corrupted and we don't want that of course. When pictures get lost in the transfer it would be disastrous. Microsoft calls it 'a devorcable event'. Good name:

In theory there couldn't be a difference between the sound of a usb-stick or a hard drive. And to be honest: I tried them all in my home theatre pc: 5400 rpm, 7200 rpm, ssd's and thumb drives... no difference in my opinion. The reason is simple: they contain exactly the same bits. In your case the hdd contains the same info as your thumb drive. Do you agree on that fact?

So... you say that the difference is the noise that go over the usb-cable. I agree that a hard drive can send out noise. Especially if it's powered over usb. So that's why i prefer a hdd with it's own power supply. Or even better: a nas. But... you say you changed the usb-cable and heard a difference. I find that pretty hard to understand. It's the hdd that creates the noise. That noise can go to the bdp. But, first of all the bpd should filter that and be pretty immune to that. If that's not the case, than why isn't that part of the usb-bus isolated from the rest of the (audio)circuit? Tentlabs did that with the b-DAC. It's pretty easy he explained to me.

Second: how can a cable cancel out the noise on the power lines? All usb-cables are twisted and shielded. Sure: a high-end cable can be shielded better, or use thicker copper and better plugs. Sure... they look better and maybe they are more robust. But making bits sound different, or cancel out 'pollution' when connected to a hdd... that I cannot understand. And if you can hear a difference because of pollution on the power lines... it surely is the dac that is not isolated properly.

And this part

Quote

Only because now you have to deal with noise coming off the HDD through the AC and in the air.

What's going through the air exactly? High frequency radiation? A mobile phone or wireless router is a 1000 times more powerfull. All producers of electronics ought to make their products immune to that. If you can't hear the noise of your mobile phone or wireless router, a hdd shouldn't be an issue... by the way: the casing of the hdd is a shield, just like the casing of the bpd, pre-amp, power amp, etc. I assume the bpd isn't made out of plastic.

skunark · « **Reply #41 on:** 13 Dec 2011, 08:47 pm »

Quote from: werd on 13 Dec 2011, 02:38 pm

Wow

i guess there needs to be a refresher course here. I'll get to the crust of it.

EVERYTHING YOU DO INFRONT OF YOUR AMP GETS AMPLIFIED. The only qualifier being your system is sensitive enough to hear changes in your front end. An all Bryston system will let you do that. This includes usb cabling from your hdd to a bdp or any other compiler of data. It doesnt matter, if the final outcome is for that data to be amplified all things will make a difference including usb cabling.

The problem here is there are too many people trying to technify the hobby with dogma that should play second fiddle to the most important part. That part being just sitting down infront of your system engaging the sweet spot and listening.

From what i've read above very few do that and have a problem posting their tone deaf posts. Except for the Wywires of course (grandmaster of cabling) .

Naaah.

werd · « **Reply #42 on:** 13 Dec 2011, 09:31 pm »

Quote from: jaapnr1 on 13 Dec 2011, 06:43 pm

In theory there couldn't be a difference between the sound of a usb-stick or a hard drive. And to be honest: I tried them all in my home theatre pc: 5400 rpm, 7200 rpm, ssd's and thumb drives... no difference in my opinion. The reason is simple: they contain exactly the same bits. In your case the hdd contains the same info as your thumb drive. Do you agree on that fact?

So... you say that the difference is the noise that go over the usb-cable. I agree that a hard drive can send out noise. Especially if it's powered over usb. So that's why i prefer a hdd with it's own power supply.

Hello

Yes i agree with this. Which brings me to this point. There are two very different scenarios that apply here. In the first scenario everything you bring up holds true. They are the same bits. Its the second scenario where computer folk get tripped up and they miss the point. The point is, in playback the files are running real time, processed and amplified. This is completely different from the first scenario since we now start talking in terms of whats audible out your speakers. Whats audible is everything that is amplified. You hear everything all noise and component signatures all piled up into one stereo soundstage. And if your system has the resolution you will also hear noise between your HDD and your soundcard. I am talking decent gear here too not brand X stereo receivers. You don't hear much past those pieces.

You are probably correct about the Power supply sending out noise and somehow that usb cable was altering it. But none the less it made a difference. How i don't know. But i can assure there was an audible difference.

jaapnr1 · « **Reply #43 on:** 13 Dec 2011, 09:46 pm »

Quote from: werd on 13 Dec 2011, 09:31 pm

Hello

Yes i agree with this. Which brings me to this point. There are two very different scenarios that apply here. In the first scenario everything you bring up holds true. They are the same bits. Its the second scenario where computer folk get tripped up and they miss the point. The point is, in playback the files are running real time, processed and amplified. This is completely different from the first scenario since we now start talking in terms of whats audible out your speakers. Whats audible is everything that is amplified. You hear everything all noise and component signatures all piled up into one stereo soundstage. And if your system has the resolution you will also hear noise between your HDD and your soundcard. I am talking decent gear here too not brand X stereo receivers. You don't hear much past those pieces.

You are probably correct about the Power supply sending out noise and somehow that usb cable was altering it. But none the less it made a difference. How i don't know. But i can assure there was an audible difference.

My point is not that there is no noise comming from the hdd. There is... My point is that the device that the hdd is attached to, should be immune to that noise and interference. The pollution in the power lines in the usb-cable shouldn't make it to the audio-part of the pcb in the streamer. If a streamer / converter is decently developed, the producer should have taken that in to account. A cable shouldn't make the difference... if it does the device isn't properly build.

One reason for my conclusion, is that the data-packages didn't get corrupted: you didn't hear any clicks, pops or clear audible artifacts. That's what happens if the data-stream gets corrupted. There is only one thing left if you can hear a difference: noise from the power lines in the usb-cable. And that shouldn't get into the converters, opamps or power supply of the streamer.... at all.

a1p1 · « **Reply #44 on:** 14 Dec 2011, 01:19 am »

Werd, is this the system in which you've been evaluating said USB cables?

werd · « **Reply #45 on:** 14 Dec 2011, 02:42 am »

sort of but there i have an avs2000 and a 4b with my old bp25. The system is completely overhauled now that i think of it. Speaks are the same though. I see my old Blue circle mr1200 there too which is gone and replaced with my Torus rm20. Tv is backed further in the corner now and my speakers are diagnol kinda like what you see. Much more of a kids carnival though since my kids have run right over it. Those wool rugs are nice and help keep the floor bounce in order.

drjjpdc · « **Reply #46 on:** 14 Dec 2011, 03:48 am »

Well here is my 2 cents. I am on disability so I can't always walk down to the mancave system. A friend of mine suggested getting a better amp/dac so as not to use the low rent one in the basic laptop. So I got one of the many choices in Ray Samuels line of miniatures.

http://www.raysamuelsaudio.com/products/predator

Worked above my expectations, plus they are available on the used market (that's how I bought mine) as well. Plus the battery can almost be re-charged forever, so worries there. It also works great with headphones and has 2 inputs.

I then bought the Kimber USB cable (was only 45.00 plus you can return it from GA) and it worked even better with the Predator. Even without the Predator, the Kimber cable was definitely worth the $50. Go for it.

http://www.gcaudio.com/cgi-bin/store/showProduct.cgi?id=592

Sometimes it takes what the Delbert McClinton song says (Leap of Faith) when listening to accessories. Forget about whether a cable should or should not make a difference. Does it MAKE a difference to you? Not everything has to be submitted to double blind testing. When you buy speakers don't you simply listen to different models and decide which ones sound better to you? Why can't you do the same for cables?

Remember I am not talking kilobuck items here that require mental mastur*ation to justify the expense. When justifying a purchase, remember your system is for pleasing you not your audio friends. If you like sweeter kinds of wine, are you going to stock your cellar with dry wines to please your friends just because Bordeaux is higher on the official grape ladder than say, Vouvray? Same goes in audio.

jaapnr1 · « **Reply #47 on:** 14 Dec 2011, 09:41 am »

Quote from: drjjpdc on 14 Dec 2011, 03:48 am

Well here is my 2 cents. I am on disability so I can't always walk down to the mancave system. A friend of mine suggested getting a better amp/dac so as not to use the low rent one in the basic laptop. So I got one of the many choices in Ray Samuels line of miniatures.

http://www.raysamuelsaudio.com/products/predator

Worked above my expectations, plus they are available on the used market (that's how I bought mine) as well. Plus the battery can almost be re-charged forever, so worries there. It also works great with headphones and has 2 inputs.

I then bought the Kimber USB cable (was only 45.00 plus you can return it from GA) and it worked even better with the Predator. Even without the Predator, the Kimber cable was definitely worth the $50. Go for it.

http://www.gcaudio.com/cgi-bin/store/showProduct.cgi?id=592

Sometimes it takes what the Delbert McClinton song says (Leap of Faith) when listening to accessories. Forget about whether a cable should or should not make a difference. Does it MAKE a difference to you? Not everything has to be submitted to double blind testing. When you buy speakers don't you simply listen to different models and decide which ones sound better to you? Why can't you do the same for cables?

Remember I am not talking kilobuck items here that require mental mastur*ation to justify the expense. When justifying a purchase, remember your system is for pleasing you not your audio friends. If you like sweeter kinds of wine, are you going to stock your cellar with dry wines to please your friends just because Bordeaux is higher on the official grape ladder than say, Vouvray? Same goes in audio.

Let's be clear: I'm happy for all those that notice a difference and are satisfied by their purchase. Who am I to judge? I'm just showing and explaining my point of view, that is more technical by nature.

That doesn't mean I don't listen carfully though. In basic I'm just as much a music lover as you are... In the end, I'm looking for the best sound possible...

James Tanner · « **Reply #48 on:** 14 Dec 2011, 12:10 pm »

Hi Folks,

I think it is important as well to allow as many different or divergent opinions as possible on AudioCircle without people feeling like they are being attacked or ridiculed. Some like myself tend to believe in the science and some others believe that what they hear is the critical component and all else is inconsequential.

But these differing experiences is what makes this hobby great

james

saisunil · « **Reply #49 on:** 14 Dec 2011, 02:28 pm »

I think we are only beginning to learn about computer as a source and Stereophile and TAS are just beginning to get on the bandwagon ... some of us find more aural bliss in the ritual of cleaning their records and aligning the carts and arms and properly damping the table ... yet it is all physics ... all science and all hobby ... and all pure madness

But if it is a new accessory like USB cable that we are yet to fully understand or discover - it is easier to dismiss it ...
Heck even science is beginning to understand that most of the matter (~87% ???) in the universe is made up of dark matter - matter that we cannot see or directly measure and it may be more significant than the rest of the stuff that we see and experience.
With that said - I agree we must try to understand as much as we can within reason and then have an open mind that there is so much we collectively do not know or understand yet and probably never will be able to explain everything, even though we may experience it ...
If these tweaks / variations were made more affordable and more easily enjoyable, not only our families would tolerate our hobby more but perhaps we audiophiles would not kill this hobby and it would lower the barrier to entry ...
So my best friend would not send me a link to a $25,000 speaker cable

So let there be more love and peace in this hobby and may we learn from each other's experiences ...

Happy Audio-DaysSunil

werd · « **Reply #50 on:** 14 Dec 2011, 05:49 pm »

Quote from: James Tanner on 14 Dec 2011, 12:10 pm

Hi Folks,

I think it is important as well to allow as many different or divergent opinions as possible on AudioCircle without people feeling like they are being attacked or ridiculed. Some like myself tend to believe in the science and some others believe that what they hear is the critical component and all else is inconsequential.

But these differing experiences is what makes this hobby great

james

What makes the hobby great is a powered stable soundstage like you get with the 14B at an affordable cost. Thats what makes the hobby great. As for science......

Best left for the muppet labs

run beaker she's goin to blow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S3K9kEASOw&feature=related

BrysTony · « **Reply #51 on:** 14 Dec 2011, 06:06 pm »

Quote from: James Tanner on 14 Dec 2011, 12:10 pm

Hi Folks,

I think it is important as well to allow as many different or divergent opinions as possible on AudioCircle without people feeling like they are being attacked or ridiculed. Some like myself tend to believe in the science and some others believe that what they hear is the critical component and all else is inconsequential.

But these differing experiences is what makes this hobby great

james

That's how we roll

drjjpdc · « **Reply #52 on:** 14 Dec 2011, 08:59 pm »

Since I am new here allow me some words of clarification.

jaapnr1 and james,
I agree with you very much. I have a few degrees in Biology and Chiropractic among them so lord knows I've had my share of math and science over the years. I only mention them not to be a smart-ass, but to help see what I am trying to express. If you thought I was guilty of ridecule or attacking, please forgive me that was not my intent.

saisunil,

Total agtreement on the cost of our hobby. There is affordable stuff out there, it's just a little harder to find. That's where we old experienced farts come in, to help the newbies wade through the BS, without promoting what we like and helping to find out what they like. We know the names NAD, Music Hall (electronics), Rel (affordable subs), PSB, Alon (affordable speakers), go up a little higher and get Sandy Gross new Golden Ear Triton 2 speakers (about 2500) but you get a sub, sub amp and floor standing speaker all in one. Even some TT's are under $500 bucks. Or get a TT and use your computer as a source for awhile. Whatever combination works for your budget. Hey Tax refund time will be around the corner. Buy some stuff from a place that has an upgrade policy and upgrade one at a time.

Werd,
This the last word (sorry I couldn't resist). I live in NJ, where are you, because I got to visit that library. I often need some help from a librarian with locating stuff. And I don't have any with her obvious talents at my home bookplace!

John

drjjpdc · « **Reply #53 on:** 14 Dec 2011, 09:04 pm »

Holy Mackerel Werd you are about 2100 miles away from me! I just checked your profile. That's a long way to take out a book! Are there any branches closer to the USA?

jaapnr1 · « **Reply #54 on:** 15 Dec 2011, 01:51 pm »

Quote from: drjjpdc on 14 Dec 2011, 08:59 pm

Since I am new here allow me some words of clarification.

jaapnr1 and james,
I agree with you very much. I have a few degrees in Biology and Chiropractic among them so lord knows I've had my share of math and science over the years. I only mention them not to be a smart-ass, but to help see what I am trying to express. If you thought I was guilty of ridecule or attacking, please forgive me that was not my intent.

What are you trying to express exactly?

drjjpdc · « **Reply #55 on:** 15 Dec 2011, 05:56 pm »

Quote from: jaapnr1 on 13 Dec 2011, 09:46 pm

My point is not that there is no noise comming from the hdd. There is... My point is that the device that the hdd is attached to, should be immune to that noise and interference. The pollution in the power lines in the usb-cable shouldn't make it to the audio-part of the pcb in the streamer. If a streamer / converter is decently developed, the producer should have taken that in to account. A cable shouldn't make the difference... if it does the device isn't properly build.

One reason for my conclusion, is that the data-packages didn't get corrupted: you didn't hear any clicks, pops or clear audible artifacts. That's what happens if the data-stream gets corrupted. There is only one thing left if you can hear a difference: noise from the power lines in the usb-cable. And that shouldn't get into the converters, opamps or power supply of the streamer.... at all.

Jaapnr1,
Did you not say, "a cable should not make the difference, if it does the device is not properly built." I like to see measurement stuff too, but I just wanted to make sure newbies did not feel intimidated about trying something because it may not make logical technical sense.

Since James used the phrase about attacking and ridecule, I wanted to make sure I wasn't lobbing any hand grenades your way or his in a denigrating manner. That's all.

SHV · « **Reply #56 on:** 15 Dec 2011, 06:57 pm »

"but I just wanted to make sure newbies did not feel intimidated about trying something because it may not make logical technical sense. "
********
The flip side of that is where I was a few decades ago in being intimidated by the recommendations of the "experts" that X%(20%?) of a systems cost needed to be allocated for cables. A possible result of that thinking is that a $4500 BDA/BDP can't work that well with $100.00 Bryston cables.

Steve

drjjpdc · « **Reply #57 on:** 15 Dec 2011, 09:44 pm »

Steve,

I am sorry that you talked to the wrong experts. But even salesmen in audio shops are not experts. For example, a few years ago I went to one shop with Krell stuff. Well, Dan's $11,000+ speakers were flat against a wall that was parallel to the front door about 6 feet away! Can you imagine if Dan D'Agostino would have casually walked into that shop? He would have popped a cork!

I agree that formulas don't make any sense regarding audio systems and their cost. Maybe 50-60 years ago, before CD's and Cassette Tapes were sources, and a system consisted of an amp/pre/int; 2 speakers; and a TT (including arm & cart). Especially considering room size, type of music listened to, how loud you want to listen, and whether you want surround or not. The only formula that works is asking the newbie how much he wants to spend and make the options fit his budget. Not really much different from buying a car and the options you can afford.

I just wanted to make sure newbies were not afraid to try a cable, an isolation square of rubber or a brick on top of their amp. They may not make logical sense all the time but as long as they don't cost a fortune, try one and see if there is a change in your system. Plus it will help sharpen their listening skills, sounds like a win-win to me.

JfTM · « **Reply #58 on:** 15 Dec 2011, 11:22 pm »

And let's not forget the tinfoil hat

drjjpdc · « **Reply #59 on:** 16 Dec 2011, 02:34 am »

Or placing different denominations of coins on top of your speakers. I haven't tried foreign coins yet, so I can't vouch for their efficacy. I imagine placing French coinage on top of British speakers could cause some co-operation/teamwork issues?