[doug s.]

Care to Elaborate on why please?

The room is dual purpose, but it is purpose built more for 2-channel music, I just didn't know what to label it as under the systems creation station thing.

I am in the same size room as you had (have) 13x18. I have my speakers on the long wall, and the rack off to the side.

I just got done spending an extensive amount on acoustic treatments. The official list..

6 GIK Trip Traps, four in front corners, two in back
4- GIK Monster Traps one directly behind the listening chair, one direct in front of me, two behind speakers.
3- GIK 244s All on the wall behind me.
4- ATS Acoustic 2 inch panels at the side reflection points.
2- GIK QRD Diffusors at First Reflection Points.

I don't know if I could cram anymore treatments into the room, save for the ceiling, which I have been told a line source doesn't need.

It is one of those stackable VTI racks, so it is open.

My front speakers are around 4 feet from rear wall.

Interesting idea, I might have to try something like that. 

w/your front speakers 4' out from the wall, if your rack is low, and tight to the wall, it wouldn't interfere too much, i would think.  however, if your speakers are along the long wall in a 13x18 room, it sounds like the listening position must be tight against the rear wall, or wery close to it.  this, i imo, is a huge problem, regardless of where your rack is located.  unless i was set-up w/a nearfield system, w/listening position ~4' from the speakers, there's no way i would ever be having my speakers on the long wall of a 13x18 room...  and, if i did, i think i'd be keeping my rack on the side wall.

if you insist on keeping your speakers on the long wall, & want to try different speaker cables and keep them short, better to yust move your amps on the floor adjacent to, or behind the speakers; and run a long pair of ic's from your preamp...  generally, longer ic's are less deleterious to the sound than longer speaker cable anyway, imo.  better to do this, even w/the speaker cable you have - yust move the amps, get longer ic's & shorten your present speaker cable.

ymmv,

doug s.

[Tyson]

If you move your rack it will be pissed!  It won't be hurting just the sound.

[jimdgoulding]

I dunno, but a case could be made that it would better diffuse the sound off your back wall, rather than reflect at the same time, to your listening position.  Whether or not that is an improvement remains to be seen by your mind of it. 

[Hipper]

My 13' x 8' room system with the speakers on the long wall had them pushed as wide as possible and up against acoustic treatment. The speakers' drivers were, as a result, 3' from the back wall, 1' of which was acoustic foam. My listening seat was right up against the other wall, which meant the speakers were considerably toed in. It was a nearfield listening set up and, with a digital equaliser, worked well. My rack was to one side.

A question please. Why do some think a rack between the speakers will effect the sound of a stereo system? I thought of one possibility, that of the speaker's drivers and there dispersion angle, leading to reflections off the rack and gear, or perhaps second reflections, presumably from the wall behind the listening position. Someone mentioned something else, namely that a bass mode may interfere with sensitive equipment - a turntable being the obvious piece.

The stereo image itself that we hear at our listening position is a phantom image, caused by psycho acoustic phenomenon, not a real image that occupies the space between the speakers.

[Stercom]

If the rack is high, it will definitely interfere with the soundstage. If you keep it low, say 2' or less, it should be okay. I went from a 33" high rack to a 20" one and it made a significant improvement. I think a lower double width rack would be better than a single width higher one.

+1 This has been my experience as well. Keep it low and you will be fine.

[Quiet Earth]

The stereo image itself that we hear at our listening position is a phantom image, caused by psycho acoustic phenomenon, not a real image that occupies the space between the speakers.

Bingo! Not too long ago I realized that I could place bulky furniture in the "soundstage" area of my room, then reposition the speakers and recapture a stereo image to my liking. Notice that I said a stereo image, not the stereo image. FWIW, back when I was hell bent on achieving a specific brand of holographic stereo-disney in my room, this idea may not have worked for me. I have since learned to appreciate other attributes of recorded music besides a perfect image which probably only exists in my mind.


king,

I think you may be surprised with how much furniture (tall or wide) that you can put between your speakers and still get a very good stereo image.  It helps to close your eyes when you are doing the listening part of your re-arranging though, because your eyes may not accept the new, non audiophile layout. (In other words, your eyes may tell you that you don't hear the stereo image that your ears do.)

I think the best suggestion that you got so far was to grab some bulky furniture and put it in between your speakers.  Spend some time rearranging your speakers to get a stereo image that you like. Give it some time and try to listen to it more than look at it. If you don't like what you hear, then save up for longer cables.

Good luck king!

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

Bingo! Not too long ago I realized that I could place bulky furniture in the "soundstage" area of my room, then reposition the speakers and recapture a stereo image to my liking. Notice that I said a stereo image, not the stereo image. FWIW, back when I was hell bent on achieving a specific brand of holographic stereo-disney in my room, this idea may not have worked for me. I have since learned to appreciate other attributes of recorded music besides a perfect image which probably only exists in my mind.


king,

I think you may be surprised with how much furniture (tall or wide) that you can put between your speakers and still get a very good stereo image.  It helps to close your eyes when you are doing the listening part of your re-arranging though, because your eyes may not accept the new, non audiophile layout. (In other words, your eyes may tell you that you don't hear the stereo image that your ears do.)

I think the best suggestion that you got so far was to grab some bulky furniture and put it in between your speakers.  Spend some time rearranging your speakers to get a stereo image that you like. Give it some time and try to listen to it more than look at it. If you don't like what you hear, then save up for longer cables.

Good luck king!

Sorry, I totally disagree what you suggested that we can put whatever bulky furnitures in between the loudspeakers without affecting the sound. I said so from my many decades of listening experience.

ON the contrary, less furniture in the same listening room better will be the sound & its imaging. Ideally there should be nothing placed inside the virtual floor plan triangle (isosceles or equilateral) with the pair of loudspeakers & the sweet spot placed at the corners of the triangle.

The idea is to provide obstruction-free air movement in this crucial acoustical area with minimum soundwave deflection which will affect the sound & its imaging.

To solve the potential acoustical problem of the original poster placing a tall rack in between the loudspeakers, the loudspeakers should be moved out as far away from the rack as possible & have the entire rack covered up with some sound absorbing blanket or the like materials whenever the music is on.

I just attended a seminar hosted by an acoustiscal consultant for some very hi-end brandname electrostatic/hybrid loudspeakers, he said ideally only one pair of loudspeakers should be in the same listeing room, let alone bulky furniture to avoid undue soundwave deflections. He claimed he could hear the sonic difference with another pair of loudspeakers stand beside.

For years since day one I had my audio den installed in my house basement, there is nothing placed in between the pair of loudspeakers & my sweet spot.
NOt even a coffee table which so many many audio fans love to put in front of their sweet spots. For convenience or what? This is huge acoustical BOOBOO!

c-J

[nwboater]

Very true, where there is forniture/equip there is no soundstage. .................

How do we deal with a large screen in the middle which I believe the OP has? No way to have a large screen and soundstage?

Thanks,
Rod

[rbbert]

Although one probably doesn't want "furniture" between the speakers and the listening position, there should be some floor treatment to address the first reflection areas.

[rbbert]

How do we deal with a large screen in the middle which I believe the OP has? No way to have a large screen and soundstage?

Thanks,
Rod

If you have a large screen, I would assume it's a 5.1 or 7.1 system, and the center channel speaker should provide a "real" center, as opposed to the phantom center created by stereo.  Stereo "imaging" becomes mostly irrelevant.

[kingdeezie]

Hello everyone!

A lot of good conversation going in here! I have the electrician coming tomorrow and we are going to move the outlet, and consequently the rack to the center.

The screen doesn't seem to have any negative effect to the room. It hangs on the wall, and without it there, there would still be wall.

Of course treatments might likely be better there in the middle of all that real estate, but again, I have taken the screen down and have not noticed anything bad.

Its a projection screen, so its just fabric. A TV screen might be a different story.

I for one do not use a center channel. I couldn't find one that gave me better sound then phantom center so I bagged the whole thing.

The room is mostly for me anyway, so I am usually in the center. The people who sit off to the sides of the screen, namely my wife and my kids could care less about not having a center image anchored to the screen.

I'll let everyone know how moving the rack sounds in the end. I am going to keep it as close to the wall, and as far behind the speakers as possible.

Eventually when I save up, and purchase much better speaker cabling, I am sure the soundstage will improve.

[Soundtrackmixer]

If you have a large screen, I would assume it's a 5.1 or 7.1 system, and the center channel speaker should provide a "real" center, as opposed to the phantom center created by stereo.  Stereo "imaging" becomes mostly irrelevant.

This is a correct assumption. Ideally the center would be in front of the set, which would only affect frequencies that can bend around the speaker cabinet, and reflect off of the cabinet that set sit on, or the set itself.

In one of my hometheaters my center speaker sits on a stand just in front of the subwoofer that my television sits on(a non resonant mat sits between the set and the sub). The frontal soundstaging is no different than when the subwoofer AND the set was not in the room at all.

[Quiet Earth]

c-J,
Welcome aboard! Glad to talk shop with you, even when I am wrong.

I totally disagree what you suggested that we can put whatever bulky furnitures in between the loudspeakers without affecting the sound.

I never said that furniture would not affect the sound. I said that you could recapture a stereo image by careful speaker positioning around the newly placed furniture. But you have to be willing to try something different for a little while to see if it works for you. Sure, you may not get the exact same stereo image, and yes, you may decide that you can only enjoy the no-furniture-zone type of holographic image that you are used to. That's cool.

On the other hand, you might discover that your speakers do other things better when their primary goal is not to constantly reproduce holographic 3D imaging. You might find improvements in room loading and pressurization, like what you might hear from real instruments. Or the intensity and contrast of the initial attack may improve.  The mid-bass and vocal range may have better substance to it, and the height and width of the image scale might seem more realistic to you. Or, you might hate it.  But when is there a better time to experiment and re-evaluate what your system is capable of than when you need to move your rack anyway?

As for rules and rituals, well there is no shortage of that in audio. I have more or less broken all of the rules in your post and achieved excellent results. I guess there is no scientific standard for personal preference.

I'll let everyone know how moving the rack sounds in the end. I am going to keep it as close to the wall, and as far behind the speakers as possible.

I think as long as the face of the speakers are ahead of the front of the rack you will be in good shape. Don't be afraid to try a little more speaker toe in than you are used to, or to get them closer to the side walls if you have to. Take your time and have some fun with it.

[cheap-Jack]

HI.

(1)... But you have to be willing to try something different for a little while to see if it works for you.
(2)... Sure, you may not get the exact same stereo image, and yes, you may decide that you can only enjoy the no-furniture-zone type of holographic image that you are used to. That's cool.
(3)... you might discover that your speakers do other things better when their primary goal is not to constantly reproduce holographic 3D imaging.
(4)..You might find improvements in room loading and pressurization, like what you might hear from real instruments. Or the intensity and contrast of the initial attack may improve.  The mid-bass and vocal range may have better substance to it,....

Thanks for yr open-minded response. Please don't get offended as I just want our readers here to get my message right. By no means to start a flame here.

(1) Yes, "Imagination is more important than knowlege" quoted Albert Eienstein.
So it always good to explore new stuffs.
(2) But Eisntein also quoted  "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts."
Acoustics is a science which is backed by valid theories. Deflection of the patterned paths of the soundwaves can only mess up the 3D image, which is, IMO, the most crucial issue of home audio. Any "other things" to me is not important & would not interest me. Sorry.

(3) & (4) Rather than mess up the 3-D image by soundwave deflections caused by  redundant furniture or whatever blocking the way, I would suggest you to add an audio spectrum equalizer. This electronic gadget (IMO, a distortion generator which should be avoided 100%), will allow you to change the tonal balance of the music to whatever way you want.

First thing come first. Get the acouctics right with least stuff in the listening room. Then do any tonal changes electronically.

c-J
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts" quoted Albert Einstein

[Scottdazzle]

I think as long as the face of the speakers are ahead of the front of the rack you will be in good shape. Don't be afraid to try a little more speaker toe in than you are used to, or to get them closer to the side walls if you have to. Take your time and have some fun with it.

This is exactly what I did and the imaging (front-rear, left-center-right, and top-bottom) is just fine. This might work for you, too. 

[Quiet Earth]

Please don't get offended as I just want our readers here to get my message right.

Not offended in the least bit and we read you loud and clear. You are not alone in your convictions either. Stick to your guns. 

I like to re-consider my own methods, which is why I posted in the first place. Self inflicted learning.

Deflection of the patterned paths of the soundwaves can only mess up the 3D image, which is, IMO, the most crucial issue of home audio. Any "other things" to me is not important & would not interest me.

I totally understand that, and quite often the imaging is the most important thing to me too. But in the end I guess I decide to compromise imaging for other music related things. (That's a nice way to say that I just can't make up my mind what quality of the music is more important.)

[jimdgoulding]

Are your speakers open baffle or purposely rear firing?  Both would engage the wall behind them more than front firing speakers and be more parcel to what you hear at your seat, no?  How about getting that right first, unless you have already, with your seated position and surrounding walls.  Then introduce your rack and listen for changes, if any, placing the bulkier of your components nearest the floor.  A rack open on all four sides would be the most transparent to the music.  A cabinet, however, could add coloration.  I favor the short wall, too, so long as your speakers don't have to be too near their adjacent walls.

Keep us posted.

[kingdeezie]

Hey guys,

"Tragedy" struck yesterday when I moved the equipment to the center....

The power cord to the DAC got caught on the rack as I "slid" the DAC into its rightful spot, and the IEC INLET snapped clear off the back and the DAC.

My heart sank as PVC inlet casing dripped out of the hole in the DAC chassis...

At this point my system is not even hooked up because I was pretty upset with the situation and myself.

I have one of those "fancy" Furutech FI-10 Gold Inlets on the way that don't need to be soldered, so I am hoping I can fix the problem myself, and maybe improve the DAC a little in the process.

If not, I have to send it back to the company for repair, and will be down for a while.

I'll keep everyone updated, and post once the system is back up and everything is playing.