New toy- Empire 208-- didn't fair well in shipping, need suggestions

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Berndt

if your multimeter has a hertz function you can check it at the wall
If you don't have a DMM, perhaps you can find a local AC'er to help?

jmpiwonka

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 135
yeah i got a dmm. gotta check to see about the frequency setting though...

edit: looks like mine is too cheap to check frequency with  :green:

is it common for the line frequency to be off and what would the fix be if it were off?

Berndt

I believe if the frquency is off it would be an issue for the power company.
Just trying to isolate why you are having this speed problem.

jmpiwonka

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 135
I believe if the frquency is off it would be an issue for the power company.
Just trying to isolate why you are having this speed problem.

yeah, i appreciate the help, i'd like to figure this out.
i'll see what i can do about checking the frequency.

Wayner

Line frequency is not going to be off. It actually is from the physical construction of the power generator. Seek other answers, this is not one of them.

Wayner :)

jmpiwonka

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 135
wayner is right.
frequency is 60.01 hz.

i guess there is nothing in the wiring to the motor that could make this happen right?
i cleaned the belt surface of the platter off with steel wool. doubt it removed any metal at all. maybe a clearcoat or something to throw the ratio off?

Wayner

OK, you've suffered long enough. Time for me to fess up. Empires are old designs (very good, lasting the test of time), but, they engineered somethings that I always questioned. First, their huge high-torque motors are almost industructable. You could use them in a record cleaning machine as the drive motor.

We all know that synchronous motors lock onto line frequency to hold their speed. That almost never veries, but voltage does, thats why they are designed this way. Another way to determine a motors RPM is 120 X cycles (60)/ number of poles. Most modern day motors are 24 pole (that puts the half cycle pole position every 15 degrees) so the equation works like 120 x60 = 7200 /24 = 300.

The Pabst motor in all of the Empires, runs much faster. When I did the math years ago, things didn't quite come out, cause I also don't know how many poles there are, but it's way more then 24. I also know this is an inside out rotor motor. Not ever taking one apart, this portion is a mystery to me, but along with the math, I could tell the motor was designed to run faster then the spec speed of 33 1/3 RPM.

Why did Empire do this? Well, If the tables were to survive years and years of service, you could imagine that they would get dirty and start to slow down. Because it's a synchronous motor, you can't make it speed up, the only way to adjust was to slow it down. So my guess is they designed it at a faster speed on purpose.

If you look at your motor assembly, you will notice a knurled nut. As you loosen or tighten the nut, you will notice that the motor starts to tip towards or away from the platter. If you tip it far enough (away), the edge of the belt will hit the edge of the next pulley. This is how Empire adjusted the speed of the motor, by putting more drag on the motor (physically). You did not ever move the knurled nut far enough to ever observe that (It took me awhile to figure this out, too.

Now here is the fix: I wrapped the path of the drive belt around the rim of the drive platter with electrical tape, keeping out all the bubbles, keepint the tape always straight and stretched (almost none) the same as I went around and around. The end of the tape should be at the original seem and cut straight so that layers do not overlap. It will end up about 1/8" thick all around. Your speed will be perfect.

Wayner :)

jmpiwonka

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ok. good to know that it's normal for the motors to be a little fast.

Wayner

Well, it is for Empire. My VPI is right on. So is the Technics.

Wayner :)

jmpiwonka

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 135
did a little messing with it today and i've got it almost dead on now. still a tiny tiny bit fast but i'll leave it that way.
got the turntable basics belt on, with the LP gear belt, which is a bit thicker, it will speed up a bit more still.

oh yeah, and i ordered some new motor grommets...

burningdesre

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
I think that the turntable speed of belt driven turntables are a matter of ratio of the output speed
(33 1/3 rpm) divided by the motor speed (1800 rpm) which should be equal to the diameter of the drive shaft on the motor divided by the diameter of the outside of the platter.

I measured roughly 12 inches on the diameter of the outside of the platter on the empire 208; so the calculated value of the drive shaft on the motor would be 0.22".

The most accurate result would be to measure the actual speed of the motor and then calculate the drive shaft diameter from that.