LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound

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Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #40 on: 12 Mar 2022, 02:43 pm »

AndrewDIY

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #41 on: 12 Mar 2022, 04:35 pm »
So quite a jump from Clarity CSA to Sonicaps (gen 1 or gen 2)? Is it a matter of transparency or something else?

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #42 on: 12 Mar 2022, 09:12 pm »
Sonicaps are a step up in transparency and clarity, adding a Miflex copper bypass would be a bigger jump, adding a little bit more richness and body to the treble.
The biggest benefits will be from swapping the two electrolytic caps in the woofer circuit for some good, budget polycaps. Upgrading the iron core inductor would also help. Last would be swapping out the resistors.

Gen 1. Gen 2 Sonicaps are just bypass caps, Most are under 0.1uF.

AndrewDIY

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #43 on: 13 Mar 2022, 12:29 am »
Thanks for the explanation, Hobbs. The description of removing the crossover fits with what I can see in my Kef q150's. I was thinking about swapping out parts for better ones with same value (it would be relatively cheap as there are just 3 parts), but was worried I would damage the box or something trying to pry out original crossover. Why couldn't they just use screws!? I wonder if it would be bizarre to just leave in old crossover and cover it with poly-fill or something?

corndog71

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #44 on: 13 Mar 2022, 01:48 am »
Clarity CSA caps should never be used on a tweeter circuit.  They roll off the top end.  Fine for mids but not for tweeters.  Now the CMR are much better balanced.

Rich123

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #45 on: 14 Feb 2025, 10:39 pm »
I notice these speakers have about 20 inches of 18 gauge wire connecting the binding post to the crossover and driver.  The wire looks to be aluminum with clips on the binding post and driver. 

It would be quite difficult to upgrade since the front as Danny has pointed out.  Still, I'm wondering how much sonic improvement could I expect by soldering in some 16 gauge copper wire, putting some basic Dayton audio poly caps in place of the 18uf and 35uf electrolytic caps in the woofer circuit.  And soldering in some copper wire in the tweeter circuit. 

I'm using the digital coax out on my Wiim Ultra directly into a Peachtree GAN 1 DAC-AMP to drive the Metas.  And I'm using an RSL 10" subwoofer below 90hz.  Any opinions on the potential sonic improvement these mods could make with this level of equipment?




corndog71

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #46 on: 14 Feb 2025, 11:49 pm »
I wouldn’t expect much improvement from Dayton caps.

Rich123

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #47 on: 17 Feb 2025, 03:06 am »
In Reply #42, one comment was "The biggest benefits will be from swapping the two electrolytic caps in the woofer circuit for some good, budget polycaps."  So I'm hopeful that even Dayton polycaps will have significantly better performance than the electrolytics.

I'm also hopeful that upgrading internal wiring and using solder joints in place of clips would help more than changing the binding posts.  But I don't see that being recommended so perhaps it's not worth the trouble.

JCarney

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #48 on: 17 Feb 2025, 03:22 am »
In Reply #43, one comment was "The biggest benefits will be from swapping the two electrolytic caps in the woofer circuit for some good, budget polycaps."  So I'm hopeful that even Dayton polycaps will have significantly better performance than the electrolytics.

I'm also hopeful that upgrading internal wiring and using solder joints in place of clips would help more than changing the binding posts.  But I don't see that being recommended so perhaps it's not worth the trouble.

I replaced electrolytic caps in both a KEF two way as well as a Polk two way with Dayton DMPC polypropylene caps and the difference was night and day. The more you do, like getting rid of push on connectors, cruddy binding posts and internal wire, the more improvement you will hear. Dampening the walls with no-rez or some other product like Canopus will also net positive results.

Good luck,
JCarney

Rich123

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #49 on: 17 Feb 2025, 02:17 pm »
I notice that there is a 35uf electrolytic cap in my speakers instead of the 30uf cap I see in this thread.  The resistor values are the same.  I'm guessing it's C3 and doesn't make much difference here. 
If anyone knows if/why which of the two values is better, please respond.  Thanks!


Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #50 on: 17 Feb 2025, 03:37 pm »
I notice that there is a 35uf electrolytic cap in my speakers instead of the 30uf cap I see in this thread.  The resistor values are the same.  I'm guessing it's C3 and doesn't make much difference here. 
If anyone knows if/why which of the two values is better, please respond.  Thanks!



C3 is part of a notch filter, (along with R3 & L4) so it's less important than the other parts of the circuit, and the differences in performance will be a lot smaller.

Rich123

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #51 on: 17 Feb 2025, 03:52 pm »
Thanks!

Although upgrading the parts on this speaker will be difficult, I'm motivated to hear how much difference it makes.  My thinking is that the drivers and cabinet already make a rather clean, transparent sound which should allow the wiring and cap upgrades to be more easily heard.

corndog71

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #52 on: 17 Feb 2025, 03:52 pm »
C1 is the first one to replace.  Maybe splurge a little for that one.  The rest could be Daytons or Audyn.  For larger values you can parallel two caps like 30uF = 2x 15uF.

And yes, replace the wire.  Danny sells high quality 16awg wire.  Ask about the cap values you need and see what he’s got.

DannyBadorine

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #53 on: 21 Feb 2025, 06:18 am »
Clarity CSA caps should never be used on a tweeter circuit.  They roll off the top end.  Fine for mids but not for tweeters.  Now the CMR are much better balanced.
Do you have any measurements to back up this claim?  If it rolls off the top end then that would be easy to see in measurements.  I use them in my tweeter circuits and never have that problem.

corndog71

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #54 on: 21 Feb 2025, 03:35 pm »
Just my own personal observations and experience with them.  If you like them, cool.

Hobbsmeerkat

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #55 on: 21 Feb 2025, 03:50 pm »
Often times, I think with these types of comments, it's less of an actual measurable "roll off" as it's more a perceived "softening of the edges" where things are generally less "detailed" sounding compared to other caps, in much the same way that Jupiter's copper foil caps are sometimes described as "warm," "dark" or "veiled," even if frequency-wise they generally measure identically to other capacitors of the same value.

It could be another factor, like discharge rate, caused by the dielectric that gives them some of that tonality, where the higher frequencies seem to lose some of the finer details.

FullRangeMan

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #56 on: 21 Feb 2025, 03:57 pm »
From Lampizator site.

FullRangeMan

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Re: LS 50 Meta open baffle like sound
« Reply #57 on: 21 Feb 2025, 08:31 pm »
I notice these speakers have about 20 inches of 18 gauge wire connecting the binding post to the crossover and driver.  The wire looks to be aluminum with clips on the binding post and driver. 

It would be quite difficult to upgrade since the front as Danny has pointed out.  Still, I'm wondering how much sonic improvement could I expect by soldering in some 16 gauge copper wire, putting some basic Dayton audio poly caps in place of the 18uf and 35uf electrolytic caps in the woofer circuit.  And soldering in some copper wire in the tweeter circuit. 

I'm using the digital coax out on my Wiim Ultra directly into a Peachtree GAN 1 DAC-AMP to drive the Metas.  And I'm using an RSL 10" subwoofer below 90hz.  Any opinions on the potential sonic improvement these mods could make with this level of equipment?
AWG16 is not an improvment IMO.
Instead use Neotech Teflon UPOCC awg 14 or 12 Solid wire, not stranded.