SP2 & HDMI

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pantone172

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Re: SP2 & HDMI
« Reply #80 on: 7 Nov 2007, 04:43 pm »

Unfair question James. I think that's a question for the Bryston team.

Perhaps we can look at it another way, How much is a sp1.7 customer worth?

James Tanner

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Re: SP2 & HDMI
« Reply #81 on: 7 Nov 2007, 05:07 pm »
I disagree - if you are returning units to the manufacturer through the dealer what does the manufacturer do with the returned product? I assume it is discarded.

Does the manufacturer inflate the price of the new product to account for the returns?

Recognize that we set are prices at a very realistic level - meaning there is not a lot of margin to play with. It costs what it costs so how does the manufacture make it fair for all involved?

I heard Lexicon offered a trade-in only if you paid full list for the new unit?

james
« Last Edit: 7 Nov 2007, 05:42 pm by James Tanner »

pantone172

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Re: SP2 & HDMI
« Reply #82 on: 7 Nov 2007, 06:44 pm »
James,
It’s my understanding that the majority of lexicon units are resold by retail dealers. The ones returned to the factory are used in systems, which enhance the acoustics of musician practice rooms.

So with Bryson's low margins and product mark-ups, is it fair to say that a trade-in program doesn't seem like an option?

thanks

James Tanner

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Re: SP2 & HDMI
« Reply #83 on: 7 Nov 2007, 06:59 pm »
I spoke to some dealers and most admitted the old trade in product really is difficult to sell.

I am hoping the upgrade path is doable but if not maybe trade-in policy where it is direct to the factory.

james



Phil A

Re: SP2 & HDMI
« Reply #84 on: 7 Nov 2007, 09:11 pm »
Lexicon is not the only co. to do that and not all of the trade-ins are confined only to items purchased from dealers.  Magnepan offers a trade-in I believe within a year if you purchase the MMGs factory direct.  Linn has offered trade-ins too as have others.  Usually the trade-ins on electronics are large enough to give the customer something vs. being stuck with a door stop and still mean a hefty amount of cash to get a new item.

Perhaps the lesson to be learned on future products is have a case and digital power supply big enough to accomodate changes to the digital section.  No matter how you slice it whether it is more slanted towards dealers or manuf. holding things out in the catagory of future proof when that turns out to not be the case in a short period of time it leads to less than happy customers.  It raises a question when a manuf. comes out with a new unit as to whether it is really that cos. thing to make that type of product.  That's one reason why I asked about HT bypass on the BP26 (which James answered).  That's also why a couple of high end cos. make multi-channel analog (vs. HT) pre-amps.  The rapid changing nature of processor technology leaves a distinct advantage to the mass market cos. to the have them quicker.  A HT enthusiast wants to have the latest and greatest features as soon as they are available.

James, we're not picking on Bryston.  Rotel has taken a bunch of heat for their last announced pre-amp that I believe is just HDMI 1.1 vs. HDMI 1.3.  Even Yamaha took criciticism several mos. back for having rec'rs with only HDMI 1.2a.  I guess it's a balancing act to some degree.  I understand why a co. would want a piece of the high end HT market as it is a big segment.  When one starts getting customers not pleased with the available co. resources (e.g. changes happen to technology but the customers have nothing to do with the design and development to accomodate such changes) to satisfy their HT needs, it will lead some to perhaps the conclusion for those wanting an all-in-one high quality music and movies that perhaps it is not the right choice.  I had an interesting discussion with a friend who has a SP1.7 as I do.  His wife needs to use the system for the kids and for herself.  While having a BP26 and moving the volume control to a certain point for movies is not a big deal for me being the only user, it is a big factor in his case.  While I might sell mine and get a BP26 and a rec'r, he might move away from Bryston all together.  He wants to have the latest and greatest technology in one box and from the state of things he is reaching the conclusion that perhaps it is not Bryston's thing.  That's not to say that Bryston does not make a quality component and also tries to take into account the concerns of its customers.  It's just a fact about the current state of technology and Bryston's resources.  I'd love to have a single component for movies and music but am rapidly reaching the conclusion that it is easier for me to have a rec'r for that (who knows the next generation may even have HD Radio Tuners too and other features that allow integration of home networks, music servers, MP3 players) and I have secondary bedroom and basement systems that can always use that rec'r when I am ready for a new one.  Yes, I'll probably sacrifice some quality on something like multi-channel music but that is not a huge priority for me personally.  Obviously for Thunder who posted earlier, multi-channel music is much more important.  So you can't please everyone and I understand that.

James Tanner

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Re: SP2 & HDMI
« Reply #85 on: 8 Nov 2007, 01:08 am »
I agree - small high end companies have to wait to implement the latest technology. 

I feel strongly though that without high end companies pushing the envelope with these new technologies we are all relegated to mediocrity.

james


Phil A

Re: SP2 & HDMI
« Reply #86 on: 8 Nov 2007, 02:13 am »
James - you're probably right.  I'm just not that much of a videophile or multi-channel enthusiast.  My 14BSST is in for the Swedish mod and looking at one issue and while the main system is apart I'll be watching a movie in the bedroom system which is more than fine to me for movies.  I have an Oppo 980 upconverting to 1080p via HDMI to a 1080p 42 inch LCD and an old Sony ES rec'r with an Adcom 555 amp for the left and right channel.  The front 3 channels are older Thiel SCS2s and it is fine for me.  I have my old Micromega DAC in there which is connected to the Oppo and my Sony 2000ES CD/SACD changer.  I just picked up a refurbished Zune player which I'll mainly use for the car but on occasion hope to make use of the USB input of the Oppo as the bedroom system feeds multiple other places via a speaker switcher.

I'd like to be able to do the new formats but I need a new projector in the main system (it will do 720p but has no HDMI or DVI) and I a decent rec'r for movies with gimmicky features is probably enough to satisfy me as long at I have good 2-channel.

James Tanner

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Re: SP2 & HDMI
« Reply #87 on: 8 Nov 2007, 12:21 pm »
Hi Phil,

Thanks for your feedback.

I have to say there really does seem to be a resurgence in high quality 2 channel. 

We are selling more phono stages now than we have in a very long time. Part of my concern when we released our new CD Player was that it would be passed over as almost a 'retro' product. Well I have to say it has been the most successful launch of a new product I have ever experienced at Bryston. Since it's introduction a couple of months ago we have been in a constant backorder situation.

Also a number of my dealers have reported to me that they have put in Stereo only listening rooms again in their stores. Sadly I think most people have no idea how great a well setup stereo system can be.

james




Phil A

Re: SP2 & HDMI
« Reply #88 on: 8 Nov 2007, 02:31 pm »
I've had surround sound in my systems long before Dolby was readily available.  In the old days, they called them time delays.  In the mid-1980s I had a house built where I use to live and the builder was in shock that I asked for wiring for rear speakers and wanted to know what for.  I had a Dahlquist sub with their electronic crossover long before subwoofers were common.  Both surround sound and 2-channel have come a long way.  I have slowly come to the point that I'd rather have great 2-channel and the way rec'rs have gotten so good for surround, I certainly can live with many of them for movies.  I find the worst part of the typical rec'r is the compromises on amps and sharing power supplies.  I can certainly live with a decent rec'r as a pre/pro for home theater, a hub to make CD-Rs for the car, watch an old LD every now and then, a convient way to upconvert video, etc. with a high quality preamp like the BP26.  I do understand that something like that solution won't be best for everyone.  I think that is what much of this thread is about.  It highlights the different priorites.  I could also live with an all-in-one pre/pro but as can be seen from several threads on this board, they are slower getting to market even with the mass market cos. as it is a much smaller segment of the market.

James Tanner

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Re: SP2 & HDMI
« Reply #89 on: 8 Nov 2007, 03:26 pm »
Hi Phil,

I agree that some receivers are good but relative to what the higher end companies do the audio amplification areas are sadly lacking.  I probably get a call a week from a customer that has replaced his surround receiver with and SP2 and can not believe how much better the audio is when listening to movies and music.

Things that matter to us as audiophiles - image placement, tonal balance, steering effects, soundstage continuity. noise floors, power supply etc. are all improved upon in a product like the SP2 over a typical receiver.

I agree though that for some customers these issue are irrelevant and a good basic surround receiver is all they will ever need.

james
« Last Edit: 9 Nov 2007, 03:17 pm by James Tanner »

BMU (Bryston Maggie User)

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Re: SP2 & HDMI
« Reply #90 on: 9 Nov 2007, 07:38 pm »
Just my view on the value of a good pre-pro.

I purchased my SP 1.7 on the used market.  I knew the SP2 had a newer digital section and the issue of HDMI had not been addressed yet.

It was a very good value when I consider that it has a very good:

1) pre-amp
2) processor
3) DAC

I use it now in 2channel set-up but use all 3 functions as my sources are a CD player (for which the analogue pre is very good), processor for audio concerts on DVD-V discs (no video on playback), and a DAC for my new Squeezebox (which is quite the combo...)

I am quite happy with the SP 1.7 and think it serves my multi-source digital music needs better than say a Bryston BP2xDA or receiver based system.

Having listened to the new BCD-1 at 2 different dealers I do not think the DAC's in the SP1.7 are grossly inferior (in fact Chris Russell suggested my electronics were fine and did not really need any upgrades).  However I would like to have an HDMI upgrade path for hi-rez (but not necessarily multichannel) music.

If this will not be possible I will not be looking for a new pre-pro for some time until prices stabilize etc. 

I am glad James / Bryston is facilitating open discussion about upgrade paths.

Alex

-----
Squeezebox / CDP / DVD-V
Sp 1.7
Bryston 9BST x 4 channels
Passively Bi-amped Magnepan 1.6QR's



Phil A

Re: SP2 & HDMI
« Reply #91 on: 9 Nov 2007, 08:09 pm »
I agree it is great about the open discussion.  You won't find many cos. doing it in this manner.  It does disclose the differences in preferences among customers for features and quality.  It's certainly made me think and prioritize where I want to head with my system.  I would expect that over time the digital features and circuitry will changes more rapidly than the analog ones.  From what I read and post on a HT forum where I am not Admin. there are so many products geared for home audio distribution.  I can barely keep track of them.  I understand that some people may want them but I personally don't have any use in anything more than I have with speaker switches (with volume controls) being able to pipe the music of my choice to other locations.  So we all have different priorities and it's great we have a person like James Tanner over here to inform us and listen to those different points of view.