[assafl]

It seems unlikely that any format will win this war. Neither camp will volunteer to give up their licensing royalties, nor could they be expected to, and nor should they. The discs are very similar and could be read on one player. The manufacturer will then have to pay royalties to both the DVD CCA and Blu Ray. And the customer will happily pay the price to swap their 5 year old DVD player.

But that will not affect HDMI as the winner in the interface world for both Video and high resolution, multi-channel audio. That battle (IMHO) was won a long time ago.

[MOZ]

James,

There is something that troubles me.
As with the news audio codecs (DOLBY +, DOLBY TrueHD or DTS-HD), it is told everywhere that ONLY the HD-DVD or BD players can manage them (because of the advanced authoring mode), decode them, transform them in PCM and then send the result thru the HDMI to the pre/pro.
But, DENON or you (for exemple) are telling us that we will have HDMI 1.3 and the proper new decoding formats in our pre/pro.
Do you have any idee how it will be possible to get those DOLBY TrueHD /DTS-HD directly from the software to the pre/pro avoiding the PCM transformation ?
Did you speak with people from the studios or DOLBY or DTS about that at the CES ???
I don't get it...

MOZ

[Thunder]

Great question Moz. I look forward to James response.

Back to my interest lowly HDMI 1.1, check out this quote from a PS3 review:  http://www.ultimateavmag.com/hddiscplayers/1206ps3blu/index1.html

As background, PS3 does not offer analog out option so your Pre/pro must have HDMI 1.1 or higher input to take advantage of LOSSLESS audio provided. He has an Anthem AVM50 (has HDMI 1.1 input )partnered with the PS3.

Here's the quote:

" But the big story here is the spectacular sound I've been hearing from the uncompressed PCM tracks on Sony's Blu-ray Discs, which I can extract thanks to the HDMI 1.1-equipped Anthem AVM 50 surround controller. Uncompressed PCM is so spectacular it makes lossy Dolby Digital and even DTS sound like MP3. This is not an exaggeration. The uncompressed PCM tracks on Monster House and Black Hawk Down both set new standards for both sound design and high fidelity in reproduction, and indeed the latter won a deserved Academy award for Best Sound.

As heard over uncompressed PCM these soundtracks were simply amazing with absolutely effortless dynamic swing and power, and both provided more naturally detailed sound than you've ever heard from a movie. But this resolution is sweet and easy on the ears with no hints of strain or stridence whatsoever. These soundtracks just soar with power and unrivalled nuance and make their DD and DTS counterparts sound like paper-thin facsimiles. The imaging was completely transparent in and around the room, with no sense whatsoever of being tied to the physical locations of the loudspeakers. The bass was tight and robust, but also controlled with texture and taut pitch definition. In short, this is the best movie sound I've ever heard. "

[MOZ]

I know lossless codecs are terrible (i've tried CONSTANTINE in DOLBY TrueHD with the 5.1 analog of the SP2  )...
But the point is, do we need a 1.3 + proper decoders on board our SP2 ?
Will we be able to use those new decoding systems if the players and the softwares can't allow it (only thru PCM transformation) ???
Actually a simple HDMI 1.1 might be enough...
I'm really interested in what James might have asked in the CES !!!
MOZ

[Thunder]

Will we be able to use those new decoding systems if the players and the softwares can't allow it (only thru PCM transformation) ???
Actually a simple HDMI 1.1 might be enough...
I'm really interested in what James might have asked in the CES !!!
MOZ

What I've read so far on this is that you cannot turn off the decoding in these hi-def players because the interactivity requires it. Maybe future versions of the players will allow to bypass this and have it decoded through the pre/pro but who knows - hopefully James will have some knowledge around this.

Point I'm making is very much related to yours, I see immediate value of having an HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 input whereas the value of a 1.3 input is still a tad hazy to me and too far out there - having the same questions about it as you.

[Phil A]

Here is a brief history of the versions of HDMI and I think if you read it in total you'll appreciate the Bryston approach to do it right.  I want my SP1.7 upgraded too, but I'd rather have it done right and once and wait a little big longer:


http://www.denguru.com/2007/01/08/hdmi-past-present-and-future/


"Here is a brief overview of the version history of HDMI:

HDMI 1.0 - 12/2002

Single-cable digital audio/video connection with a maximum bitrate of 4.9 Gbps. Supports up to 165 Megapixels/second of video (1080p @ 60 Hz or UXGA) and 8-channel/192kHz/24-bit audio.
HDMI 1.1 - 5/2004

Additional support for DVD Audio content protection
HDMI 1.2 - 8/2005

Additional support for Super Audio CDs
HDMI Type A connection available for PC sources
PC sources can use native RGB color while retaining the option to support YCbCr color.
Support for low-voltages sources
HDMI 1.3 - 6/2006

Single-cable digital audio/video connection increased to 10.2 Gbps
Increased color support, including 30-bit, 36-bit, and 48-bit color depths (RGB or YCbCr)
Supports xvYCC color standards
Supports automatic audio syncing capability
Supports output of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio streams (audio codec formats used on HD DVDs and Blu-ray Discs) for external decoding by AV receivers.
Availability of a new mini connector for devices such as camcorders.

................

Feature HDMI 1.3
Maximum Data Rate 10.2 Gb/s
Maximum Resolution 2560x1440 progressive (1440p)
Maximum Color Bit Depth 48 bits
Maximum Colors Displayed 281 Trillion
Maximum Audio Sample Frequency (2 channels) 768 kHz
192 kHz (8 streams max)"

[Thunder]

Phil, question remains though, if the players are all required to decode, why is this decoding necessary through pre/pro?

[Phil A]

Phil, question remains though, if the players are all required to decode, why is this decoding necessary through pre/pro?

I would rather have the flexibility of decoding along with the bass management capabilities in the pre/pro and just let the player pass it on. I'm not sure, but if you do stuff in the player it would seem you could be stuck by whatever the player will or will not do (e.g. 100 hz crossover for speakers defined at small)?

[Thunder]

Phil, question remains though, if the players are all required to decode, why is this decoding necessary through pre/pro?

I would rather have the flexibility of decoding along with the bass management capabilities in the pre/pro and just let the player pass it on. I'm not sure, but if you do stuff in the player it would seem you could be stuck by whatever the player will or will not do (e.g. 100 hz crossover for speakers defined at small)?

I agree with you assuming you are given that choice. As far as I know, players do not provide this choice and I'm not really sure if they ever will. On the upside, they do offer bass management but I'm not sure how good it is. Other than the management aspects that lost by having the player do the work, I'm not sure if you really pay a price WRT audio quality. In other words, is it relatively simple to decode these Hi-def formats or does jitter enter into it like it does with CD playback. Hopefully James can clear all of this up.

[Phil A]

I've never found the bass management in players to be all that useful.  The other question is whether the circuitry quality (not just the flexibility) is as good in the player as the pre/pro.  It seems to be that if you're doing in the player and then passing it to the pre/pro and then connecting to the pre/pro it still has to go thru the DSP engine on the pre/pro as a pass thru.  If that is the case, why drag the signal thru 2 things?

[MOZ]

James,

There is something that troubles me.
As with the news audio codecs (DOLBY +, DOLBY TrueHD or DTS-HD), it is told everywhere that ONLY the HD-DVD or BD players can manage them (because of the advanced authoring mode), decode them, transform them in PCM and then send the result thru the HDMI to the pre/pro.
But, DENON or you (for exemple) are telling us that we will have HDMI 1.3 and the proper new decoding formats in our pre/pro.
Do you have any idee how it will be possible to get those DOLBY TrueHD /DTS-HD directly from the software to the pre/pro avoiding the PCM transformation ?
Did you speak with people from the studios or DOLBY or DTS about that at the CES ???
I don't get it...

MOZ

So James ?

[Thunder]

Guys, I found this post that does a far better job of explaining what I was trying to explain earlier regarding players being required to decode he Hi-def formats. Here it is:

"First let's clarify some nomenclature. Dolby and DTS have both introduced new audio codecs. The lossy ones are DD+ (Dolby Digital Plus) and DTS-HD (High Definition). The lossless codecs are Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA (Master Audio).

Think of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA as zipping a computer file to save space. None of the data is discarded, just packed more efficiently to take up less storage space. When you unzip the file, 100% of the data is still there, and you get a bit-for-bit copy of the original.

If you had a zipped document that you wanted to send me on disc, you would have two choices. You could unzip it on your computer before putting it on the disc. Or you could send it to me as a zipped file (would take up less space on the disc) and I could unzip it on my computer. Either way, I end up with the exact same document, down to the last letter.

Likewise, decoding (unpacking) a soundtrack in the player or in the receiver will yield the exact same results. It's not like high end receivers have a special secret version of TrueHD decoding reserved for them that cheap players aren't allowed to have. It's just format decoding. If certain audio data is flagged for the left front channel, then decoding in the worlds most expensive receiver won't place that data somehow "more" into the left front channel than decoding in the world's cheapest player.

Going back to the zipped document analogy. If you wanted to change anything in the document, from simple correction of spelling mistakes to complex re-formatting for a better look, you would first need to unzip that document. You wouldn't be able to manipulate it while it was still zipped.

Similarly, everything a receiver does to the soundtrack, upto and including D/A conversion, requires the soundtrack to be in uncompressed PCM form. In fact, when you send your receiver a DD or DTS bitstream, the first thing it does is decompress the soundtrack to linear PCM. Only then can it apply things like bass management, time alignment, etc.

Soundtracks on HD DVD (and eventually on Blu-ray, when it goes interactive) operate very differently than they do on DVD. With current DVDs, you need entirely separate soundtracks for things like foreign languages and filmmaker's commentary. This is actually a pretty wasteful approach.

With HD DVD, soundtracks can be authored in the 'Advanced' mode, which allows multiple content streams to be live-mixed (mixed in real time). You don't need another soundtrack for foreign languages. Just swap out the English centre channel stream with one of the foreign centre channel streams. You don't need another soundtrack for commentary. Just reduce the level of the main soundtrack and mix in the commentary stream. Same with button sounds and other interactive features, like picture-in-picture.

Just like editing the document requires unzipping the file first, doing any of this live-mixing to the soundtrack requires decoding it to linear PCM first. This is why it has to be done in the player. They're not going to transmit every option to your receiver, just one soundtrack. You choose what you want to hear, it is mixed in the player (i.e, the soundtrack you want to hear is literally built in real time inside the player) and transmitted as a final mix to your receiver.

Current HDMI allows 8 channels of 96/24 PCM to be transmitted (more than enough resolution for any soundtrack), but not the new codecs in their native form. When HDMI 1.3 arrives, it will allow the new codecs mentioned above to be transmitted in their native bitstream, but only if they were authored in 'Basic' mode (no interactivity). If the soundtrack was authored in Advanced mode, then it cannot be transmitted in undecoded form; decoding in the player is mandatory because of live mixing.

So far, all HD DVD soundtrack have been authored in Advanced mode. Which means nothing will change when new receivers arrive on the market. Despite having HDMI 1.3 transmission and decoders built into the receiver, decoding will still have to take place in the player.

Currently, Blu-ray discs are authored in Basic mode, since they haven't gotten interactivity yet. As soon as BD Java is up and working, they'll all be authored in Advanced mode too. At that point, what are the decoders in the receivers going to do? Decode the relatively few BD titles that were released before interactivity? Most of those titles will be re-issued anyway.

Personally, I'm glad that decoding is shifting to the player. I wish it had always been that way. Since receivers need the data in PCM form anyway, that's what every player should be outputting (irrespective of what format is used to store the data on the disc). As mentioned before, when new audio codecs and formats arrive, you'll have to buy a new player. But as long as the players keep outputting the audio in PCM form, current receivers will always remain compatible with anything that shows up in the future. How elegant is that!"

So, bottom line, here's the deal:
* Pre/pros will not be any more effective at decoding the hi-def formats than the players
* In the case of HD-DVD, there isn't even the option for the pre-pro to do the decoding
* In the near future, when Blu-ray gets java interactivity going, you will not be able to decode in pre-pro either
* HDMI 1.1 allows 8 channels of 96/24 PCM to be transmitted, you don't need HDMI 1.3
* Importance of HDMI 1.3 is overblown and power of HDMI 1.1 is underestimated

[MOZ]

So i don't see the point to get an HDMI 1.3 + HD decoders inside (if the price is much more important than a simple HDMI 1.1 or 1.2) !
And i don't see the point why people like DENON will offer such products... if they are no usefull !!!

James what's you're point of vue ?

[brucek]

I note that the "article" above was sourced from a forum discussion. I have no reason to doubt whether the information is accurate of not (although I accord higher credibility to published sources rather than someones opinion on a forum), but the fellow seemed like he knew what he was talking about. There is precious little published information on this specific issue.

My understanding of the HDMI 1.3 interface is that it is required to pass the higher bandwidth HDTV video information (among other features such as Deep Color, audio lip sync adjust, etc. The HD lossless audio may well pass easily on a lesser spec, but if we require the processor to accept a single HDMI cable and strip out the audio and pass on the video to the HDTV monitor, would we still not require the HDMI 1.3 spec with its 340Mhz bandwidth?

brucek

[brystonbrad]

Take note Bryston.

2007 Onkyo AVR's to have HDMI 1.3 and fully decode DTS-HD MA and DD TrueHD.

TX-SR605 MSRP $499 Shipping mid May (PREORDER IS $399!)  http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4166654
*Full A/V Processing via HDMI 1.3a with Upconversion (2 in 1 out)
*HDMI Deep Color Capable (36bit)
*Component Video Upconversion and HDTV-Capable (50 MHZ) Video Switching (3 in 1 out)
*WRAT/ Optimum Gain Volume Circuitry/ Non-Scaling Configuration/ A-Form Listening Mode Memory/ RI
*Faroudja DCDi
*Audyssey 2EQ Room Acoustics Correction
*7.1 Multichannel Inputs for PCM Delivery of Hi-Def Audio Sources
*DOLBY Decoder - PLIIx, DD, DD-EX, TrueHD
*DTS Decoder - DTS, ES, NEO6, 96/24, HD Master Audio
*S-Video (5 in 2 out)
*Digital Audio IN (OPT/COAX) 3/3
*Composite Video (5 in/2 out)
*Power 90W/Ch
*Powered Zone 2 and Zone 2 Line-Out
*Bi-Amp Capable
*XM and Sirius ports
*XM HD Surround Sound through Neural Surround

TX-SR705 MSRP $799 Est Shipping date mid to late June
*Full A/V Processing via HDMI 1.3a with Upconversion (3 in 1 out)
*HDMI Deep Color Capable (36bit)
*Component Video Upconversion and HDTV-Capable (50 MHZ) Video Switching (3 in 1 out)
*WRAT/ Optimum Gain Volume Circuitry/ Non-Scaling Configuration/ A-Form Listening Mode Memory/ RI
*Faroudja DCDi
*Audyssey MultEQ XT Room Acoustics Correction
*7.1 Multichannel Inputs for PCM Delivery of Hi-Def Audio Sources
*DOLBY Decoder - PLIIx, DD, DD-EX, TrueHD
*DTS Decoder - DTS, ES, NEO6, 96/24, HD Master Audio
*THX Select2 Certified
*S-Video (5 in 2 out)
*Digital Audio IN (OPT/COAX) 3/3
*Composite (5 in 2 out)
*Power ??0W/Ch
*Powered Zone 2 and Zone 2 Line-Out
*Bi-Amp Capable

TX-SR805 MSRP $999 Est Shipping date mid to late June
*Full A/V Processing via HDMI 1.3a with Upconversion (3 in 1 out)
*HDMI Deep Color Capable (36bit)
*Component Video Upconversion and HDTV-Capable (100 MHZ) Video Switching (3 in 1 out)
*WRAT/ Optimum Gain Volume Circuitry/ Non-Scaling Configuration/ A-Form Listening Mode Memory/ RI
*Faroudja DCDi
*Audyssey MultEQ XT Room Acoustics Correction
*7.1 Multichannel Inputs for PCM Delivery of Hi-Def Audio Sources
*DOLBY Decoder - PLIIx, DD, DD-EX, TrueHD
*DTS Decoder - DTS, ES, NEO6, 96/24, HD Master Audio
*THX Ultra2 Certified
*Burr-Brown 192/24-bit DAC on all Channels (TI Architecture (PCM1796))
*S-Video (6 in 1 out)
*Digital Audio IN (OPT/COAX) 3/3; OUT (OPT) 1
*Composite (6 in 1 out)
*Power 130W/Ch
*Powered Zone 2 with Balance Volume and tone control
*Powered Zone 3
*Bi-Amp Capable

TX-SR875 MSRP $1599 Est Shipping date mid to late July
*Full A/V Processing via HDMI 1.3a with Upconversion (4 in 1 out)
*HDMI Deep Color Capable (36bit)
*Component Video Upconversion and HDTV-Capable (100 MHZ) Video Switching (? in 1 out)
*WRAT/ Optimum Gain Volume Circuitry/ Non-Scaling Configuration/ A-Form Listening Mode Memory/ RI
*HQV Reon-VX Video Processing and NSV Precision Video
*Audyssey MultEQ XT Room Acoustics Correction
*7.1 Multichannel Inputs for PCM Delivery of Hi-Def Audio Sources
*DOLBY Decoder - PLIIx, DD, DD-EX, TrueHD
*DTS Decoder - DTS, ES, NEO6, 96/24, HD Master Audio
*THX Ultra2 Certified
*S-Video (? in 1 out)
*Digital Audio IN (OPT/COAX) ?/?
*Composite (? in 1 out)
*Burr-Brown 192/24-bit DAC on all Channels (TI Architecture (PCM1796))
*Power ??0W/Ch
*Powered Zone 2 with Video Balance Volume and tone control
*Powered Zone 3
*Bi-Amp & BTL Capable
*Dual Push-Pull Amp with 3 stage inverted

TX-NR905 MSRP $1999 Est Shipping date mid to late August
*Full A/V Processing via HDMI 1.3a with Upconversion (4 in 2 out)
*HDMI Deep Color Capable (36bit)
*Component Video Upconversion and HDTV-Capable (100 MHZ) Video Switching (? in 1 out)
*WRAT/ Optimum Gain Volume Circuitry/ Non-Scaling Configuration/ A-Form Listening Mode Memory/ RI
*HQV Reon-VX Video Processing and NSV Precision Video
*Audyssey MultEQ XT Room Acoustics Correction
*7.1 Multichannel Inputs for PCM Delivery of Hi-Def Audio Sources
*DOLBY Decoder - PLIIx, DD, DD-EX, TrueHD
*DTS Decoder - DTS, ES, NEO6, 96/24, HD Master Audio
*THX Ultra2 Certified
*S-Video (? in 1 out)
*Digital Audio IN (OPT/COAX) ?/?
*Composite (? in 1 out)
*Burr-Brown 192/24-bit DAC on all Channels (TI Architecture (PCM1796))
*Power ??0W/Ch
*Powered Zone 2 with Video Balance Volume and tone control
*Powered Zone 3
*Bi-Amp & BTL Capable
*Dual Push-Pull Amp with 3 stage inverted
*Toroidal Transformer and Seperate Transformers for processing.
*Networking Capabilities via Onkyo's e-Control System for Internet Radio and WMA

[James Tanner]

Sounds like a great deal.

james

[brystonbrad]

Sounds like a great deal.

james

Hi James,

They may be a great deal, but they are definitely not Bryston.     I was just trying to point out that even "entry level" receivers are now using HDMI 1.3 and decode TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio.  I was just trying to "get the ball rolling"!   aa

I so look forward to Bryston implementing HDMI 1.3 on the SP2 and decoding the new lossless codecs!     It will be a real audio treat for sure!

[Phil A]

Besides chip availability, the manuf. probably has to go thru the licensing at hdmi.org.  Here is a link to the current list of adopters - http://www.hdmi.org/about/adopters_founders.asp

I see electronics manuf. who do not as yet have products available with HDMI so it likely is not a big Bryston priority especially given James' response (and the other cos. have apparently applied for their license).  James, I've asked (several times) before (and no answer rec'd) but I'll ask again, it is there a possibilty of having the BP26 with HT Bypass?  I understand that market factors are different for Bryston vs. a mass market manuf., but some of us (Bryston customers) love the 2-channel but are also have HT that is a bigger priority to us than it is to Bryston (and there is nothing wrong with that) and we would just love to be in a postion not to bug you about future features that could be more easily implemented by mass market manuf. and enjoy the Bryston 2-channel sound.  Sooner or later some people who may have SP 1.7s to be upgraded or are considering buying an SP-2 may look elsewhere.

[BRYSTON4LIFE]

I have to agree, the time for hdmi is now. Personally having a hd dvd player as a home theater source, hdmi would be great. Im confident it is a feature a lot of people are looking for in a new pre pro. To delay adding hdmi could make sp-2 sales troubles down the road, not to mention destroy resell value to people who already own it. I believe the time for hdmi is now, not later. If we dont support new formats such as hd dvd (or blu ray) they will die off such as sacd and dvd audio, and once again we will be stuck in the past.

[BRYSTON4LIFE]

I wanted to add, I currently have a sp-1 and I am considering the sp2 or the upgrade. However, Im also looking at the anthem 50 because of the hdmi, this is why I feel there are others doing the same about possibly looking elsewhere.