[Grbluen]

Neo,
In a word,  nothing!  Thanks to you and the others,  I think that I'm finally there.  Reducing the capacitance,  adjusting the tonearm with mass,  and finally not being a 'hardhead' and playing with the COMPLIANCE screw finally brought me home.  In the end,  we were both correct about the tie-back wire.  I took the opportunity to adjust and listen,  and I did indeed have to much pressure on the damper.  One small tweak (loosening) of the compliance screw, and all was well.  I haven't run the resonance check, but I would seriously doubt that anything had changed. If there was one thing, it would be the slight mid-range droop that's been previously discussed. I'm still going to pursue the 150mlx.

Dl,
My apologies if I've been unclear,  but unlike many of you,  I lack the vocabulary to fully express my thoughts!
I'm fairly thick-skinned,  so don't waste an opportunity to correct me!

[dlaloum]

Ahhh I was not making any comment on your use of language, rather I was commenting on the incorrect use of language very common on the web - wala for voila - and mute for moot

In the case of the expression "moot point" - not being able to source NOS ATN140LC, I turned it into a pun.... it being a mute (ie: unable to speak) point (as in needle)

I do have a liking for puns and even on occasion multi-lingual ones....

You have been crystal clear .... it was just me failing to be funny.... 

[Grbluen]

No.  It was funny,  I'm just sensitive.

[griffithds]

There is a NOS AT 140ML (not MLa) stylus over on the (you know which auction site), for $95 buy it now!  I wish they had kept that numbering system they use to have.  I would have like to just post the auction #.  Would be so much easier to locate.

Regards,
Don

[Grbluen]

Thanks Don!

[neobop]

I think the ATN140ML is tapered aluminum like the 440.  Interesting bit about the output, it might be 5mV like the 440ML OCC.  It looks like the OCC stylus sported stronger magnets.  The motors are the same.  To be honest, it didn't seem to make any difference with the ATN140LC (also 5mV - same motor).  Maybe I didn't loosen the suspension sufficiently with only a few sides played.  I'll have to try it again and see what happens.
neo

[dlaloum]

Here is some food for thought...

both hysteresis and eddy current effects increase with the signal level - ie the higher the output, the more the high frequencies are affected by these magnetic effects.

So... a stylus with a "weaker" (hopefully lighter too!) magnet, may well have sonic benefits.

Lower output voltage from the same body is likely to be more linear - high frequencies more dynamic and less compressed...

On the other hand, some compression at the high end, would help control the cantilever resonance rise in output, and provide a subjective impression of improved high end detail, soundstaging etc... (as the lower level signals would be reproduced correctly but the higher level signals would be compressed.... a sort of frequency dependent natural gain riding mechanism)

Nobody measures frequency response at various signal levels to identify this type of effect.... and it is very difficult to do reliably using differing test records.... (I have experimented with this)

I know of no test record that has the same F/R sweep or pink noise recorded at differing levels for this type of testing

bye for now

David

[neobop]

Repeatability from one test record to another can be a problem.  I believe it was Werner, the reviewer on TNT and EE, who wrote that the frequency sweeps on HFN and Analogue Productions test records were off - not properly calibrated.

Nonlinearity with output voltage is a problem for any transducer.  Amplitude response changes with groove velocity.
neo 

[dlaloum]

OK so a combination of you guys having too much fun with cantilever grafting, and a damaged ATN95HE "grip" has led to my 2nd Foray into cantilever transplants....

I came across an AT95HE going cheap on the auction site... so I picked it up.

When removing the stylus from the cartridge it got recalcitrant   - next thing I know  :



OK so nothing to lose!

Looking at the way these are mounted, I cannot see how the screw pressure can be used to adjust compliance - however, If one varies the amount by which the doughnut is compressed by pushing it into the plug, then screwing the compliance plug down to hold it in place - this will indeed alter the compliance - except how do you control this pressure?

When they manufacture these, I think the wire coming out the end continues further, and the appropriate level of tension is provided that way, before the screw is tightened and the wire is then cut at the back of the plug....

Anyway here is the visual progress of my transplant:


Removing the cantilever



Inspecting the cantilever




Hmm something strange about where the cantilever meets the pivot point...










This looks like someone may have salvaged an HE cantilever and needle by mounting it in another pivot/magnet assembly.... or are the HE's built like this?!

In any case moving right along

I looked at several AT95 and related bodies and picked the one I own with the best matched channels - which happened to be an AT105.

So I am creating an AT105HE...










Alignement check

Then I tightened the screw and checked it from the inside as well



Then I tried to plug it into the AT105 body...

now things got troublesome - the magnets were too far forwards... only by maybe half a mm - but it was not fitting in.
So I compared to an original AT stylus - the doughnut on that one seemed "thinner"

After some thought, I loosened the screw again and used a secondary implement (needle) to compress the doughnut while I tightened the screw. - At times like these it would be nice to be an octopus.

End result seems good - but not currently testable as my S-arm table is not currently deployed...

Clearly these transplants are touch and go with regards to compliance - no way of achieving repeatable results with this method!

Could you guys look at some of your HE or VL styli and see whether the mounting to the pivot is like this example, or whether what I received was someone's repair job?

thanks

David

[neobop]

David,
I have a 95HE but I don't need to check it to see that you got a grafted cantilever.  I'll take a look anyway to see if that damper looks right.
Did you take a look at the diamond?

If you can break the cantilever support with the compliance screw, maybe it can adjust compliance with the correct torque?  Maybe its function is more to limit movement of the suspension wire like off/on. 
neo

[neobop]

David,
I take that back.  Now that I've taken a good look, that is how the HE is made.  The compressed damper looks the same as yours and the cantilever fits into a grey colored extension of a black piece that holds the magnets.  That grey piece could actually be a separate piece that connects the cantilever to the black plate.

I don't think AT makes these the same, although I never looked that closely.  I think I have an orig 95E lying around somewhere.  I'll see if I can find it.

I'm starting to think that compliance is determined by the same 3 things that define it.  The cantilever itself, the suspension, and the damper. 
neo

Nice photos BTW.

[neobop]

The OEM 95 stylus looks similar, but without the grey stuff surrounding the cantilever in front of the plate.  That's the plate that holds the magnets and has a hole in the middle and an extension that looks like a flagpole stand facing down.  The extension is shorter on the OEM.  With 30X my HE looks similar to the photo.

I think the grey stuff reinforces the coupling, but I'm not sure if it's adhesive or another connecting piece.  The longer "flagpole" extension might effectively shorten the cantilever.  I would think the grey stuff would increase tip mass.  Maybe one makes up for the other.

I tried to take photos, but my good camera is loaned out at the moment.  The other one isn't good enough for the necessary magnification.

It's now obvious (thanks to David) that damper compression has a big, if not the biggest influence on compliance when performing a transplant.  If you want to retain the original cu performance of the stylus being transplanted, duplicate the damper compression like in the original holder. 

Changing compliance of a stylus, or getting it to fit, might entail changing dampers.
neo

 

[dlaloum]

I considered trying to swap dampers (to move the HE to a P-Mount fitting where I could try it on the Revox.... which requires high compliance) - But I could not work out an easy way to seperate the damper from the magnet plate... it seems to be glued together - and I was unwilling to try to force things .... (every time I try THAT - things end badly!!)

[neobop]

Foiled again.  Not much you can do with that HE unless you find a plug with a cu screw.   The 105 and the 110E have interchangeable styli, but I don't know if any upgrades exist that plug right in.  It's interesting - they have a cu screw on the bottom and all the "standard" 3400 series comes with the fitting.

Do you have a 92E for the Revox?  With the same generator as the 95, the stylus has a thinner damper, if I remember correctly.  I don't think there is an easy way to pot it though.  For $21 + shipping, it's hard to go wrong.  The .3 x .7 stylus is worth the price of the cart.

You've cleared up some of this transplant confusion, but it doesn't make it any easier.  I was thinking maybe you could repair the HE plug with a couple of strategically placed drops of superglue. 
neo 

[neobop]

Here is some food for thought...

both hysteresis and eddy current effects increase with the signal level - ie the higher the output, the more the high frequencies are affected by these magnetic effects.

So... a stylus with a "weaker" (hopefully lighter too!) magnet, may well have sonic benefits.

Lower output voltage from the same body is likely to be more linear - high frequencies more dynamic and less compressed...

On the other hand, some compression at the high end, would help control the cantilever resonance rise in output, and provide a subjective impression of improved high end detail, soundstaging etc... (as the lower level signals would be reproduced correctly but the higher level signals would be compressed.... a sort of frequency dependent natural gain riding mechanism)

Nobody measures frequency response at various signal levels to identify this type of effect.... and it is very difficult to do reliably using differing test records.... (I have experimented with this)

I know of no test record that has the same F/R sweep or pink noise recorded at differing levels for this type of testing

bye for now

David

This brings up a performance issue, output voltage and desirability of greater output.  Dynamics (in the sense of difference in voltage between loudest and quietest) is increased with higher output and has an appeal.   Hysteresis and eddy currents are sources of distortion and nonlinearities.  That's why the MCs with air core coils sound "pure".  It's like a speaker crossover coil, but in reverse.  Use an iron core inductor instead of an air core, and it doesn't sound as good but you can attain greater inductance values. 

I wonder what's going on with Clearaudio MMs.  I just checked their site again and Maestro V2 output is still listed as 3.6mV.  It was 4.1mV when it first came out and they touted stronger magnets.  It's almost as if I'm looking at an archived web page except the format is different.

It doesn't take much imagination to believe reports about the AT-50ANV and ART 7 (air cores) being some of the finest MCs ever made.  I tried a DL-S1 and it's a great natural sounding cart, but the ATs overcome problems with the Denon's high resistance and inductance. 
neo

[neobop]

I got an email from a friend in Europe.  He has a couple of Technics carts and the suspensions have collapsed.  One of them is a 205 C III I believe, and the other has a similar style but different stylus fitment.  I'll check my email again to see exactly what they are.

He was told by Axel (German cart repair) that a new damper won't fix it.  [Apparently the conversation was confusing, but that was the jist of it.] 

I assume that these have a suspension wire that has broken.  What kind of cantilever/stylus does the 205 have?  I am wondering about his options for getting it fixed.  Most of the repair people are limited in cantilever types for replacement if that is necessary.
neo

[neobop]

It seems to me there is a difference in the sound of a MC versus a MM/MI.  I don't think having the same amplitude response (if any 2 carts can) makes them sound the same.  One might disagree with this and I have no problem with that, but why?

Is the presence of inductance at the output of a HO cart, the reason?

How about the need for another gain stage with a LO?

I say this based on listening to various carts and not a theoretical hypothesis.  There seems to be a difference in presentation that's hard to describe.
neo

[griffithds]

Hi Neo:

I agree with you on two fronts here.  To me, I would describe the M/M as having a more bold (heavy), sounding presentation.  Where as the M/C is more of a light and airy sounding presentation.  And it is awfully hard to describe in such a way that it is understood by all!  I also use the term 'thicker' when describing the M/M but who (other than me), would understand what the h*ll  that means! (grin)

Regards,
Don

[neobop]

Hi Neo:

I agree with you on two fronts here.  To me, I would describe the M/M as having a more bold (heavy), sounding presentation.  Where as the M/C is more of a light and airy sounding presentation.  And it is awfully hard to describe in such a way that it is understood by all!  I also use the term 'thicker' when describing the M/M but who (other than me), would understand what the h*ll  that means! (grin)

Regards,
Don

Hi Don,
That sort of sums it up for me as well.  The MM/MI sounds more straightforward.  I wouldn't describe it as thicker, to me that means slow.  The MC sounds more sound-stagey and sometimes more layered.  Airy and transparent?  When I think of the better examples of each, these qualities seem to overlap, but maybe the MCs have the edge there.  Trying to describe this gives me a newfound respect for Mikey Fremer.  He's pretty good at it.

My phono stage only has one gain stage and I vary the amount of gain and resistance.  It might not sound identical with up to 24dB gain change, but it would probably come close.  Even with the Stanton 980LZS I can tell it's a MM.  John TCG said the same thing.  He had a Pickering 7500. 

For awhile I thought it might be inductance in the output of a HO.  I'm not sure.  I think it might just be the difference in the way mechanical energy is converted.
neo

[neobop]

Far be it for me to defend CAs pricing, but it's not the same generator as the 95.   Beside the difference in resistance, the 95 is among the least expensive in build quality.  It doesn't even have OCC wire like the 100E, 110E, etc.  We don't know exactly what CA has or how it differs.  The separation spec for the 95 is 20dB at 1K.  The crosstalk spec for the Virtuoso V2 is better than 30dB at 1K.  Channel balance is 0.2dB.  Channel balance for the 95 is 2.0dB. 
It is interesting to note that the Concept seems to have identical numbers as the 95. 

Looking at the CA web site it seems like they keep revising the numbers.  Inductance was 420mH for all of them, now it's either 400 or the Maestro is 12:40H.  Maybe that's 412mH?  The V2 Maestro is listed at 3.6mV out.  When V2 first came out they were at 4.1 mV.  Ca seems to play with the specs quite a bit.  SPECIFICATIONS SUBJECT TO CHANGE.  They're looking more like the 95 all the time.  Maybe you're right and separation and balance is selected examples?  I wonder if I put a wood top on my potted 95 would it sound identical to the Virtuoso?
http://clearaudio.de/de/products/cartridges-mm-v2.php

neo

Looks like I might have been wrong again.  A funny thing happened.  I realized I hadn't measured the resistance of the 95.  I remembered checking the Virtuoso, but I couldn't remember what it was, so.....   Turns out they're both 400 ohms +/- a few.   

According to the latest CA specs and my measurement, the 2 carts have the same output, inductance, and resistance. 

I don't think OCC wire makes a difference in resistance.  Seems to me there are carts made before 1986 (first OCC) with identical specs as those made later with OCC.  Not sure how much of a difference it makes, more detail or brighter?  One my favorites is the 20SS and no OCC there, but we don't even know if CA has it.  What if they just order a big batch of 95 bodies w/stylus, sort them by spec tolerance, pot them? insert in wood housing, and mate with corresponding stylus. 

It looks like their styli come from AT also.  Stock CA has the same fitting rather than compliance screw, as AT.  I haven't seen the Maestro plug, I wonder if that's an ATN150MLX with lower compliance?

What's that old saying?  The more things change the more they stay the same.

neo