Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 1870 times.

newzooreview

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #20 on: 23 Sep 2022, 05:15 pm »
Yes, there is a large number of options if restricted to iOS or Android devices. Ditto for LAN-local streamers running a web server that can be opened in a browser to manage playback. I appreciate that those methods serve many people well. I have no criticism of that, but that's not what I am interested in.

I am looking for an audio-only operating system (like Roon ROCK) on a headless server that lets me control playback from a Macintosh app.

There are LAN-local streaming server apps that install on top of a full Linux or Windows operating system, but that is not my interest. Again, I know that many folks enjoy setups like that, but in repeated listening in my system, putting an audio playback app on a general purpose OS does not sound as good as an audio-only OS.

Euphony, for example, is an audio-only OS, but it can only be controlled via web browser (unless their website is misleading me).

BlueOS, on the other hand, provides a native app for the Mac, but the server software is only available through buying new hardware (a BlueSound Node or NAD streamer/dac).

Buying hardware with the dedicated LAN-local streaming software installed seems to be the only alternative to Roon (e.g., audio-only OS with Mac app to control things).

Innuos makes what looks like might be the best option. I was able to download their app to the Mac (even though it is designed for the iPad it runs on an Apple Silicon Mac). I am doubtful of the user experience running an iPad app on the Mac, however, and I have no idea if they also kill playback if the internet goes down.

I had an Auralic G2 and returned it. Their LAN-local streaming app, Lightning DS, only worked from a phone/tablet and had a poor interface.

I understand that what I am looking for might seem odd or extremely limiting.

newzooreview

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #21 on: 23 Sep 2022, 05:51 pm »
Roon, by the way, has prohibited users from voting to restore offline playback. It was by far the most requested feature after less than a day of voting and they suddenly "closed" voting and declared that it's "not on the roadmap." They have not done this with any previous feature request.

The discussion of the issue, after being hidden completely, has now been removed from their software category at the top of the forum page. You have to scroll all the way past nine other categories and click on "Feedback" to find the discussion.

Roon has not yet responded to requests to clarify whether they deleted locally stored databases and moved them to the cloud with the 2.0 update. This would violate their privacy policy, but would be a very good explanation for why local playback to stops working if the internet goes down. This could also explain the combative stance they have taken: data destruction and data theft. Well, that would need to be confirmed, certainly. It's only a theory.

Roon claims they have not removed the local database or copied it to their servers.
« Last Edit: 23 Sep 2022, 07:19 pm by newzooreview »

WGH

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #22 on: 23 Sep 2022, 09:25 pm »
I am looking for an audio-only operating system (like Roon ROCK) on a headless server that lets me control playback from a Macintosh app.

I'm listening to "Just Like That...", the new Bonny Raitt album, at 768 kHz and it doesn't get better than this. You are missing the best thing about the Holo Audio May KTE, the ability to play upsampled music at high sampling rates. It's like buying a Lamborghini and never driving faster than 35 mph, you are missing a lot.

I had to do a little research before recommending HQPlayer and even though it will do everything you are looking for, you may not like the remote Mac app, I don't have a Mac so can't comment one way or another.

HQPlayer Embedded
https://www.signalyst.com/custom.html

Embedded version of HQPlayer is designed for building Linux-based music playback devices and digital audio processors. It can utilize both digital and analog inputs from various devices and output audio processed through the advanced DSP pipeline. Thus it can operate for example as a digital-in-digital-out upsampler processor and convolution engine, or used inside a DAC. It can also function as a UPnP AV Renderer and in addition there is also support for the HQPlayer Control API that can be used for implementing a custom GUI or other type of front-end utilizing the HQPlayer playback engine. HQPlayer Embedded has also a mobile device compatible web-based control and configuration user interface.

HQPlayer OS

HQPlayer OS is a fully custom Linux-based operating system tailored and optimized for HQPlayer use. It includes both HQPlayer Embedded and Network Audio Adapter functionality in a single bootable image, making it easy to to deploy the media to these different use cases. The image can be simply written to a USB memory stick or other suitable storage media, such as (micro)SD-card and booted up, without requiring any other installation steps.


Sounds simple doesn't it? Plug in a thumb drive and you have an optimized OS with HQPlayer. At this point you better have a week wacker because we go deep into the weeds.
ted_b and Miska (Jussi Laako - HQPlayer inventer and developer) have a thread on AudiophileStyle that was started in 2017 and is still going today.

HQPlayer Linux Desktop and HQplayer embedded
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30983-hqplayer-linux-desktop-and-hqplayer-embedded/#comments

AudiophileStyle has plenty of info regarding integrating Roon with HQPlayer.


And after all that reading, research and time to get a stripped down Linux/HQPlayer combination working, ted_b has the best comment:
"On first tests I am finding that HQPlayer desktop on Linux acts and sounds virtually identical to my Windows 10 version"

HQPlayer Desktop
https://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html

I use HQPlayer Desktop with Windows 11. The performance is flawless, upsampling 44.1 to 768 kHz doesn't stress the computer at all.




Although I wouldn't recommend using a Pi4 like Oli, who seems to have done everything wrong.

HQPlayer Embedded - not buying
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/hqplayer-embedded-not-buying/196171


Jussi Laako wrote a reply to Oli:
"You shouldn’t compare HQPlayer to Roon Bridge. HQPlayer has similar equivalent of it’s own - NAA which doesn’t have extra cost.

"HQPlayer itself is equivalent of Roon. But Roon is able to use HQPlayer as it’s player engine.

"HQPlayer Embedded is primarily designed for streamer device manufacturers, and you can certainly purchase devices with HQPlayer Embedded built-in. In addition it is offered for DIY streamer builders.

"HQPlayer Desktop is generic consumer product.

"What comes to GUI, primary GUIs are the control applications such as HQPlayer Client. Embedded is like Roon Server and Client is like Roon Remote."

newzooreview

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #23 on: 23 Sep 2022, 10:49 pm »
Thanks. I installed HQ Player desktop and it tried to access my computer's microphone. Not a good sign.

It looks as if it just lists individual tracks. Browsing the folders on my NAS looks about as efficient. I assume there's some sort of search built in to call up tracks of albums, but I didn't see that at first glance.

I'm not interested in upsampling. It doesn't seem logical that information that isn't in the original file can be created from thin air. It sounds like CSI "enhance" where a low resolution photograph somehow produces details that were not recorded in the original image.

AI is getting pretty good at generating the appearance of details in photos: adding grass or texture that was never recorded in the image. It might approximate what was in the photographed scene, or it might just add something that seems plausible even if it never existed. I know upsampling in HQ Player is not AI based. It's an analogy.

Maybe that misconstrues what upsampling does or is intended to do.

GregC

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #24 on: 23 Sep 2022, 11:05 pm »
I'm not interested in upsampling. It doesn't seem logical that information that isn't in the original file can be created from thin air.

I agree, if the original recording is 16/44.1, how can more information be filled in than what was provided on the original recording? 

I am an analog dinosaur and up-sampling feels similar to digitally remastered recordings or a digital file that is transferred to vinyl.  The most organic sounding in my experience is a master tape transferred directly to vinyl.

newzooreview

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #25 on: 23 Sep 2022, 11:10 pm »
I do not dispute what others hear or prefer, and I appreciate the detailed information provided about HQ Player.

My reply comes across as too abrasive, perhaps. Others may want to explore HQ Player and for many good reasons that differ from mine.

GregC

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #26 on: 23 Sep 2022, 11:26 pm »
There are many who enjoy HQ Player.  The software is available on many commercial streaming products.  I have a renderer on an Ultrarendu but I never experimented with HQ Player. 

When I comment on up-sampling my thought is there needs to be math to fill in missing data points.  There may be a superior algorithm that can smooth out the sound, and the resulting sound can appeal to a broad audience of listeners, but how can you ever get more resolution than what is present in the original recording? 

WGH

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #27 on: 24 Sep 2022, 12:05 am »
Upsampling/HQPlayer does not create data, a common misconception that keeps being repeated. HQPlayer can be also used to listen to 44.1kHz, 96kHz, etc. in it's original state, noise, ringing and all.
The loudest critics of state-of-the-art upsampling are the people who have never heard it.

HQPlayer Explanation by Jussi Laako - HQPlayer Developer

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=182724.msg1919512#msg1919512

I use the NS5 filter, Jussi Laako writes:

"NS5" is fifth order shaper that has been designed to be used at 352.8/384 kHz output rates or above. This one moves aggressively roughly 40 dB worth of noise from low frequencies to ultrasonic range [where it can be filtered out].
I don't recommend any noise-shaper for 44.1/48 kHz output rates, because there is no proper frequency space available where to park the noise.

.... "ringing" is already in most RedBook recordings, since in most cases the ADC has gone through down-conversion and possibly another round at mastering from 24/96 or similar to RedBook. "Apodizing" filter is one that replaces or modifies this original ringing with it's own - that can be less than the original.



PS Audio DirectStream DAC upsamples all data. Ted Smith, designer of the DirectStream, explains the process of perfecting Sunlight, the latest software update. Interesting 4 minute video.
https://vimeo.com/537470248

GregC

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #28 on: 24 Sep 2022, 12:42 am »
Thanks for the update WGH.  I have heard up-sampling on my own and I was aware that it was used on the Directstream DAC.  I have read a lot from Ted and respect his knowledge and the time he takes to share it with others.

In JRiver I used to up-sample everything to a multiple of 352.1 KHz or 384 KHz to send to my Wyred 4 Sound 10th Anniversary DAC.  When I played back tracks in the original format from a dedicated streamer (with a good quality linear PSU), I could not tell a difference from the higher bitrate.  I am getting old, and maybe someone with younger and more capable hearing can tell a difference, but I am not able to.

Moving noise to a high frequency outside an audible range is a technique that is also used in Class D amps.

You have me curious how HQ Player sounds, so maybe I should hookup my Ultrarendu and give HQ player a try.  Hopefully there is a way to try the software in a trial version.

newzooreview

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #29 on: 24 Sep 2022, 12:44 am »
Upsampling/HQPlayer does not create data, a common misconception that keeps being repeated.

I understand that HQ Player can process files without upsampling, but data is being generated if upsampling is being carried out. If the file has a 44.1 kHz sampling rate, then 44,100 data points were acquired each second during recording (or during conversion to digital from analogue tapes).

If the 44.1 kHz file is being sent to the DAC by HQ Player and the DAC is seeing, for example, a file with 96,000 data points per second, then data has been added to the original file.

We must be using words differently.


WGH

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #30 on: 24 Sep 2022, 02:13 am »
You are right, hi-res files are bigger than the 44.1kHz version of the same song. I have no idea how this stuff works. Maybe there is an answer in the 1036 page HQPlayer "How-To" thread at AudiophileStyle but that is for another day.
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/19715-hq-player/

I think all the HQPlayer versions downloaded from Signalyst have a free trial, they work for 30 minutes and then you have to re-start. A lot of reading and trying different settings is needed to get the best sound, fortunately changes are just a click away instead of trying 30 different DACs to find one that has synergy with your system. I have been trying different settings for 60 days and think I finally got it. This software is not for everyone.

If you click on every link in my Holo May/HQPlayer Review (I put them in there for a reason) you will get an idea of what HQPlayer is all about.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=182724.msg1919415#msg1919415

I would guess the JRiver upsampling is very basic, I have never tried it but it is probably similar to what is used in Foobar. An AC member told me he converts FLAC files to DSD256 in Foobar using an Intel i5 laptop. Doing the same 44.1 to DSD256 upsampling using HQPlayer looks like this:

The Intel i7 9700 in a fanless case is almost maxed out so HQPlayer is crunching a huge amount of data.

newzooreview

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #31 on: 24 Sep 2022, 05:50 pm »
Quote
If you click on every link in my Holo May/HQPlayer Review

I expect that is true, and I hope it helps someone.

The whole HQ Player setup looks like a distracted engineer's workbench with alligator clips holding a loop of barbed wire in a water-filled mug with a broken handle while he cranks the knob on a variac to pump some high amperage through the wire and heat the water.

Not the most elegant or efficient way to boil water, but he likes it because he kludged it together himself and he prefers an ugly mess with all the parts and bits exposed. The rust taste in the water is an added benefit to him.

However, that's not my cup of tea, so to speak.

GeorgeAb

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #32 on: 24 Sep 2022, 09:19 pm »
You could roll back to 1.8.  https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/roon-1-8-2-0-migration-faq-16-9-2022

I appreciate the move forward of 2.0 and Roon Arc allowing me to access my music from anywhere. Great for listening to a playlist that is a setlist as you are headed to a show. Probably won't feel this way when I lose internet access, but I will cross that road when it comes.

GregC

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #33 on: 25 Sep 2022, 07:49 pm »
In my opinion, requiring Internet access to stream local files is a poor business decision.  I have long contemplated Roon, but the recent price increase from $499 to $699 (for a lifetime subscription), and requiring internet access to stream local files, both cause me to take pause.  Especially when excellent results can be had using LMS, along with a plethora of useful plugins the community is still developing. 


newzooreview

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #34 on: 25 Sep 2022, 08:27 pm »
Roon hasn't given a valid reason to disable local streaming when the internet is down. They have also been very dismissive (and abrasive) about the widespread criticism and good faith requests to restore basic local streaming capacity to Roon in the event of an internet outage.

After the criticism came quick and heavy, they actually fabricated a new category on their forum as a place to bury the negative feedback three pages down on the forum homepage. The Software category is at the top of the page and the negative feedback was visible at the top of the forum home page because it was the most discussed software topic. So, they invented a new category called "feedback," put it three screens down (past eight other topics), and moved the discussion thread down there where it is effectively hidden. Of course the Software category was setup for feedback about the software and had been the place for all previous discussion and criticism about the software.

What Roon has said is that building a better search system requires processing a search request in the cloud. However, that has nothing to do with shutting down local playback altogether when the internet is down. They could just grey out the search box and let you choose from the list of albums or artists (like an iPod from two decades ago).

In fact, they have offline search in Roon 1.8. It is functional if not fantastic. Putting some grey text in the search box saying "Offline search mode" when the internet is down would have been fine. And of course nobody expects streaming services to be working with no internet.

They literally deleted fully functional code for offline search, driving users away from their platform.

GregC

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #35 on: 25 Sep 2022, 09:11 pm »
My understanding is Daphile runs on top of LMS.  I think Innuos Sense also leverages LMS.  The platform is very versatile.   

newzooreview

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #36 on: 25 Sep 2022, 10:51 pm »
Interesting.

If Innuos is just putting their branding on top of Logitech Music Server then it would be their hardware that is unique. Except that it doesn't appear to be unique at all (taking the analysis here with a grain of salt): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNO_bDskM7M

From the OCD Guy analysis, the thing that jumps out at me is the USB audio output being the stock part built in to the off-the-shelf mother board. For a $5000 music server, there is no attempt to improve the $.10 USB connector

In principle I could build a low-noise music server to replace Roon. 80% of my albums would be identified by free services, and I could go through the 200-300 albums that are off beat and get them cleaned up.

The compromise would be using a web browser to control playback.

Controlling basics with a phone or ipad in a pinch is fine, but I listen to music while working on my laptop. I don't want to fumble for another device to queue up albums, and a trackpad and keyboard are far better than poking a little screen.

Oh well.

GregC

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #37 on: 25 Sep 2022, 11:36 pm »
Innuos has written their own streaming software called Sense.  It is supposed to be a competitor to Roon.  I have never used their software, but at least it is not subscription based and many people say the sound quality in on par with Roon.  The software is supposed to have similar features such as suggestions for other music based on what you are listening to.  Innuos may have taken LMS code that is open source and modified it for their own streaming software.

Here is a link to what to expect from Sense 2.0 software.  I believe you can control play back from an app (IOS or Android), or from a PC. 

https://innuos.com/innuos2-0-sense-app/

LMS allows play back from a PC using a web browser, and there is a plugin called Materials that is a skin with a more modern look and feel. 

I believe there are improvements added for USB in Innuos servers.  Their top of the line PhoenixUSB re-clocking technology and power supplies are available as a separate component, or built into their Statement product.  I would defer to the people that have actually heard what it can do to get their opinion, but there are several positive reviews.  The PhoenixUSB Technology seems like a de-crapifier on steroids to me.


GregC

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #38 on: 26 Sep 2022, 12:02 am »
The Mano ULTRA mkIIA has really impressed me.  It is a PI3 computer with I2S (HDMI LVDS) and SPDIF output, internal linear power supply, and 20k of output capacitance.  That is all housed in a compact stand-alone component.  The one downside is it only supports a max of 192/24 KHz PCM, or DSD 64 via DoP (not DSD Direct).   The output limitation works for my particular music collection since I do not have DSD recordings or recordings that surpass 192/24.

You can download different software images to a SD card that can run everything from Roon to DLNA to LMS.  The card slot is accessible without having to open the unit. 

I am running the I2S output into my Wyred 4 Sound 10th Anniversary DAC so I am able to avoid USB re-clocking by going I2S directly into the DAC. 

The Mano single component caused me to reconsider keeping my Wyred 4 Sound DAC.  I was looking to replace the W4S with an all-in-one component to simplify my setup.  I am glad I kept the W4S DAC because the analog sound and resolution are amazing.

I was able to use JRiver (DLNA), Foobar2K (DLNA), a web browser running LMS (Squeezelite), and even Android controller software such as BubbleUPnP (DLNA).  I am using the MoOde SD card image. 

The streamer was under $1,000.  I received it from the Netherlands in less than a week.  Follow up support with questions has been excellent.

WGH

Re: Roon 2.0 now disables local playback if internet is down
« Reply #39 on: 26 Sep 2022, 12:18 am »
In principle I could build a low-noise music server to replace Roon...
I don't want to fumble for another device to queue up albums, and a trackpad and keyboard are far better than poking a little screen.

I'm enjoying the ultra-hi-res with the Holo DAC. 768kHz and DSD256 direct (2L Audio), it would be a shame to put a limit on potential fun with a under powered, low-res server.

A home-made fanless headless music server with a wireless remote desktop connection could be a solution, then any music playing software would work (even Roon). A Windows music server can still connect remotely with a Mac. This is getting a long ways from an music player living on a NUC.

Is a separate low jitter USB card needed with the Holo May? I use one because it was re-used from my old server. Never did an A-B comparison using just the motherboard USB out. The JCat are expensive, especially if they do nothing when used with the Holo DACs.

The more affordable Pink Faun USB bridge are still on hold.

The Innuos looks like parts in a box to me, good parts from what I see, but $3000 for a computer with a low power, low performing CPU??? A better, faster (Intel i7) server could be built for half that.
It is plug-and-play, what most people want though.