[pankon]

Recently I have read quite impressive reviews about Vapor speakers and I am intrigued. Maybe they would be a better choice compared to the Harbeth or the KEF LS50, which I am thinking of buying.

My amps are a Croft Micro25 pre-amp (valve) and a Croft Series7 amp (hybrid). Does anyone have experience with a Croft / Vapor combination?

And which Vapor model? Which 'color'? Black or white?

Thanks.

[jtwrace]

You really should go listen to them.  Ultimately, posting in the Vapor circle is not going to help.  There are now plenty of places to listen to them.

[pankon]

You really should go listen to them.  Ultimately, posting in the Vapor circle is not going to help.  There are now plenty of places to listen to them.

I would love to listen to them. I am quite curious. My practical limitation is that I live in Europe (Greece in particular). I understand that they are not so common in Europe... -(

[jtwrace]

I would love to listen to them. I am quite curious. My practical limitation is that I live in Europe (Greece in particular). I understand that they are not so common in Europe... -(

Good news for you!

[pankon]

OK, I get it (I think). Should the speakers fly over to me or should I fly to the speakers?

Cheers -))

[jtwrace]

OK, I get it (I think). Should the speakers fly over to me or should I fly to the speakers?

Cheers -))

Well, if you're willing to make a $10k + investment without hearing them just buy them.  Otherwise, take a flight to Vapor Audio or RMAF 2014 and listen to them and other speakers.  It's a big investment to make if you're not sure on the purchase.  Would it not be worse to buy something like that and hate them?  Oh that's right, I've been there, done that.  Never again.

[JohnR]

Um, vapour have speakers at a lot less than 10k.

[pankon]

Indeed, there are several Vapor speakers to choose from. I guess that factors for the decision are:

1) budget (but let's leave that aside for the moment)
2) room size and type (5m x 7m with two sofas and a small table. No other furniture)
3) ancillary equipment (Arcam irDAC, Roksan Xerxes with modded Rega RB300 and Dynavector MC, Croft Micro25 preamp and Series7 power amp). Current speakers Harbeth P3ESR and Snell EII.

Any suggestions about the Vapor speaker candidate?

[JohnR]

(Oops never mind.)

[sharpsuxx]

I have never heard the Croft amplifier but they are interesting hybrid amps.  I have been running my Cirrus rev 2.0 off about 38 watts of Class A tube power to good affect and they also sound phenomenal on a 100W solid state class A setup.  These speakers are pretty versatile and are revealing to upstream components so I guess the answer is if you really like the sound of the Croft, you will like it with the Cirrus.  You may find different feelings with such a revealing speaker with so much resolution as the Cirrus, but as stated before you've gotta hear them together.  I think there is more likelihood the Croft would let the Cirrus down than the other way around, my Cirrus have sounded phenomenal with anything I have in front of them.

For a room that size if you want "full range" sound I would suggest the Joule, the Nimbus, or the Derecho.  I have heard all except the Derecho at this point on various amps at various shows and listening parties.

[pankon]

I have never heard the Croft amplifier but they are interesting hybrid amps...  I think there is more likelihood the Croft would let the Cirrus down than the other way around, my Cirrus have sounded phenomenal with anything I have in front of them...

For a room that size if you want "full range" sound I would suggest the Joule, the Nimbus, or the Derecho.  I have heard all except the Derecho at this point on various amps at various shows and listening parties.

Hi sharpsuxx,
As there are (apparently) Vapor die-hards, there are also Croft die-hards. I guess the common denominator is the great value-for-money that both Vapor and Croft provide. And this is a quality that many people value.
I am intrigued about the 'religious' (please do not misinterpret the word) type of commitment that most if not all Vapor owners show. It's like a revelation, some sort of epiphany, and then we cannot go back (another example is Mac users; they will never switch back to Windows).
I would love to listen to the Vapor sound. I am intrigued by the ribbon twitter. I suppose that it is a key ingredient of the 'secret sauce'. I still have a set of old, trusted Snell EII, which have a super-tweeter at the back. This allows them to produce a wider and deeper sound stage that my Harbeth P3ESRs cannot reproduce.
I imagine that Vapors should be a combination of the airiness of electrostatics and dynamic attack that only box speakers can provide. If you asked me one month ago, which would be my most desired speaker, I would say the Harbeth SHL5 (or SHL5Plus). Now, that I have read all that about Vapor, I am not so sure any more. I would seriously consider one of the Vapor models.

Living in Europe makes it rather impractical (nothing is impossible of course). It would cost me approx. 2.5-3K+$ for a short trip to the US for an audition (not counting anything apart from travel and accommodation expenses). And if I get smitten, I am sure there is an import tax for goods coming from outside the European Union and costing more than 150$. This will definitely decrease the overall value of the Vapor offering, but these are the rules of the game. I am not sure there is much to do about that.

I just wonder whether any boxes have made it to Europe or whether there is a dealer (somewhere), where I could have an audition. Otherwise, it's Saint Louis you said? -)

Cheers.

[sharpsuxx]

I haven't heard a Croft before but they look very well made.  The "secret sauce" from Vapor is that it is a company with much lower overhead and much more passion about the craft than some speaker manufacturers I have purchased from.  They source the best drivers they can acquire and hand make each speaker  with very high quality crossover components and attention to detail.  I oggled at the components Vapor is using before Vapor was around and for me I couldn't make a speaker with the components Vapor uses at anywhere near the quality for the price I could buy them for, makes for a really interesting value proposition as a lot of speakers use components I could buy off the shelf for 20$ or buy superior drivers for slightly more, this is not the case with Vapor's lineup.  I am by no means a religious Vapor owner, but the value proposition is hard to beat in my eyes.  I would love to have you over to hear them but I am in Missouri so ya 2-3k for a trip takes some of that value prop away, hopefully someone over in Europe can chime in and you can take a road trip to hear a pair.

[bajaed]

Considering the size and price of the Harbeth speakers, you should take a look at the Cirrus or Arcus. If you want floor standers, The Nimbus is not too far off that price range. There is no shortage of very positive, detailed reviews about Vapor speakers available. I bought my pair of Vapor speakers without hearing them. After speaking to owners and reading professional reviews, I knew these were the speakers to go for.

Contact Ryan and talk to him about what you want. He can put you in contact with owners and send you plenty of reviews. You will end up with an incredible speaker that outperforms ones costing twice as much. You also get to create a unique work of audio art that looks as wonderful as it sounds. 

[Factorz]

I also bought my Cirrus Blacks unheard and while most would frown on such a move I have no regrets. Please note I did have a chance to hear a pair of Nimbus speakers to give me some idea of what Vapor can do.

[pankon]

I also bought my Cirrus Blacks unheard and while most would frown on such a move I have no regrets. Please note I did have a chance to hear a pair of Nimbus speakers to give me some idea of what Vapor can do.

Yes? What can a Nimbus do? Any better that the Cirrus?

Cheers.

[pankon]

Yes? What can a Nimbus do? Any better that the Cirrus?

Cheers.

In order to avoid any misconceptions, perhaps I should provide a couple of clarifications. Although my room is not what one would call small, however the setup is such, so that:

• speakers must be placed quite close to the back wall, not further than 0.5m
• my listening position is approx. 3m from the speakers (when placed 0.5 from the back wall)

I am bit concerned that my room may not be able to accommodate a large speaker such as the Nimbus...

[sharpsuxx]

Go with derecho or cirrus then.  The derecho is full range as well and front ported which will work better closer to the wall.  Again I haven't heard them yet but plan to soon.

[Vapor Audio]

Hello pankon, quite a few questions here so I'll do my best to answer them all. 

First regarding Black or White, that's totally up to subjective taste.  Black will use the AudioTechnology drivers, White will be Accuton.  Each bring their own flavor to the dish, Accuton is more lively and engaging - AudioTech is more lush and romantic.  However, the tonal balance we strive for with each is very similar.  Since it's my ears that decide right or wrong with each model, they all end up have a near identical balance.  In terms of resolving capability they're also very close, but the Accuton illuminates details more vividly than the AudioTech drivers do.  Neither is technically better than the other, but it gives buyers the opportunity to choose which fits their own taste better. 

Pair with your amplifier, I was unfamiliar so looked up the specs.  At 45wpc it will work nicely with anything in our lineup.  Sensitivity isn't our top priority, but it is a priority.  So most of the models in our line are more sensitive than similar offerings from competitors. 

A 15'x22' room is a good size, anything in our line can be made to work quite well in that space.  The Nimbus even would work just fine.  But as with any speaker, the room plays a huge role in the final sound.  Room treatments can almost always improve things, and we're happy to help you make those decisions.  A few pictures of the room and we can give some specific recommendations. 

As far as choosing which speaker is right for you, we can tell differences in their capabilities but ultimately it's up to you based on budget and other considerations.  There is a long wait for Nimbus orders right now, but it's obvious why - where else can you find a speaker that offers even a fraction of what it does for the price? 

Our secret sauce doesn't come down to any one thing, although the RAAL is special.  It's a culmination of refusing to compromise anywhere during the design, build, and component selection.  If there is anything we can do to improve a speaker, even just that last .1% but it adds 5 hours of labor, we do it.  Think about this true story.  At the 2010 RMAF we didn't exhibit, but took a pair of Cirrus Black there just in case somebody needed speakers.  Mainly I was there just to attend the show.  Steve Nugent and Chris Hoff had one of the big rooms down on the main floor showing some YG Acoustic Kipod II's, and they were both quite happy with how they were sounding.  But when I mentioned I had the speakers in the car, both said bring them in at 6pm when things start winding down.  When we made the swap, the YG's stayed in the prime spot because they're very heavy, and we plunked the Cirrus down to the outsides.  There were about 20 people in attendance, and we played the YG's first ... most were impressed with what they heard.  But then we hooked up the Cirrus and literally everybody in the room had a look of shock on their faces, it sounded like somebody had pulled a wet blanket off the YG's!  But through all the praise, I was asking those in attendance for anything they liked better about the YG's.  Only one person there had anything to stay, James Darby of Stereomojo.com said that he though the leading edges of the YG had more jump to it ... other than that he though the Cirrus smoked 'em, and even wrote about it on his websites RMAF wrap-up.  But what did I do?  I took it as a challenge, to give more jump to the leading edge of the Cirrus Black.  So when I got home I developed a new baffle that's made of 16 layers of .030" sheet aluminum and .1" polystyrene all epoxied together into a solid piece of tank armor, from that I CNC the baffles.  I thought the rigid aluminum baffle of the YG's was playing a part in giving the drivers a more rigid launch platform, but I also though I could improve upon it by adding some internal damping.  Sure enough, with that baffle added the Cirrus has more snap and energy! 

That's how we operate, we don't stop and we don't ever stop trying to improve.  Sure we're not perfect, we are a small operation and builds can take a long time, or we can be hard to reach at times.  But we're as passionate and aggressive with our design philosophy as any manufacturer out there, no matter the size.  What we do is give real people who have to balance their check-books the chance to own a speaker that sounds as good or better than $100K from those 'status' companies. 

[pankon]

Hello pankon, quite a few questions here so I'll do my best to answer them all. 

...

Pair with your amplifier, I was unfamiliar so looked up the specs.  At 45wpc it will work nicely with anything in our lineup.  Sensitivity isn't our top priority, but it is a priority.  So most of the models in our line are more sensitive than similar offerings from competitors.

Yes, the Croft are quite capable of driving rather insensitive speakers. One example is my Harbeth P3ESR which are less than 84db/W/m, if I remember correctly. The Croft amps do not show absolutely any strain with the Harbeths.

...
A 15'x22' room is a good size, anything in our line can be made to work quite well in that space.  The Nimbus even would work just fine.  But as with any speaker, the room plays a huge role in the final sound.  Room treatments can almost always improve things, and we're happy to help you make those decisions.  A few pictures of the room and we can give some specific recommendations. 

As far as choosing which speaker is right for you, we can tell differences in their capabilities but ultimately it's up to you based on budget and other considerations.  There is a long wait for Nimbus orders right now, but it's obvious why - where else can you find a speaker that offers even a fraction of what it does for the price? 
...

Yes, value-for-money is a priority for me. I am not a bass freak, so I am not sure whether extreme low end (which usually comes at a price) should be my ultimate objective. I listen to classical rock, 60's-70's phychedelia, R&B, Jazz (less). I prefer to be able to 'touch' the singer, instead of feeling the thump on my chest.

So, what's your initial diagnosis? I feel that Nimbus is beyond my reach, especially due to its size and weight (transportation cost), as well as customs duties into European Union. So, what is still there? Cirrus Black or even Stiff Breeze?

In case you are familiar with the Harbeth sound (or the classical BBC sound), how would you compare the Vapor sound with that?

Cheers.

[Vapor Audio]

Yes, the Croft are quite capable of driving rather insensitive speakers. One example is my Harbeth P3ESR which are less than 84db/W/m, if I remember correctly. The Croft amps do not show absolutely any strain with the Harbeths.

That does tell me a bit about your listening habits and preferences.  45watts is 45watts, and on a 84db sensitive speaker you're going to be maxing out around 95db at your listening distance.  If you're happy with those levels, than anything in our lineup will give you that and more. 

Yes, value-for-money is a priority for me. I am not a bass freak, so I am not sure whether extreme low end (which usually comes at a price) should be my ultimate objective. I listen to classical rock, 60's-70's phychedelia, R&B, Jazz (less). I prefer to be able to 'touch' the singer, instead of feeling the thump on my chest.

So, what's your initial diagnosis? I feel that Nimbus is beyond my reach, especially due to its size and weight (transportation cost), as well as customs duties into European Union. So, what is still there? Cirrus Black or even Stiff Breeze?

In case you are familiar with the Harbeth sound (or the classical BBC sound), how would you compare the Vapor sound with that?

Cheers.

Moving up to the larger speakers in our line, what they give you is the ability to play loud with thump, and do so effortlessly.  If you don't play loud, and you don't need that chest rattling whack, then the Cirrus Black is what I'd steer you toward.  It definitely gives you that see-through transparency you say you want, where you feel like you can reach out and touch the performers.  The Stiff Breeze is also incredible for the money, but the CB has more refinement and is more relaxing in that BBC way.  I wouldn't say anything we do is like the BBC sound where the upper midrange and treble is reticent and subdued, all our voicings are much more balanced top to bottom - they have more sweetness and air on top, and more articulation through the midrange.  But the Cirrus Black has this unquantifiable magic that is able to just chill you out if that's the mood you're in, much like a very warm BBC type speaker can do, but it does that while also being far more resolving top to bottom.