[dragon5589909]

Recently I have read quite impressive reviews about Vapor speakers and I am intrigued. Maybe they would be a better choice compared to the Harbeth or the KEF LS50, which I am thinking of buying.

My amps are a Croft Micro25 pre-amp (valve) and a Croft Series7 amp (hybrid). Does anyone have experience with a Croft / Vapor combination?

And which Vapor model? Which 'color'? Black or white?

Thanks.

Hey there,

Not heard the croft amplifiers, but have head the LS50s and a HL5 from Harbeth. I have a beautiful custom pair, called the Vayus, which I reviewed here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=115285.0. Got them for my dad.

According to Ryan and Pete, the Vayus have about 90% of the Cirrus Black's performance. The Vayus are in London, if you're ever in town.

I heard the LS50s at a KEF and Raidho dealer while up at Boston. Briefly, the LS50s are great but cannot compete with the Vayus in terms of clarity and soundstage. The Raidho C1.1 was unduly brittle/harsh/fatiguing and I do prefer the Vayus. The Raidho D1.1s are natural and transparent, and just slightly, but noticeably clearer, than the Vayus in the midrange because of that diamond-deposited woofer. The Vayus are using the Usher 8948a woofers as featured on Usher's top line speakers. If i had to be utterly pernickety, the 8948a are not as responsive as the absolute best, but definitely are able to keep up in the sub $10K range.

The HL5 is a decent speaker, but again, not as airy, clear or neutral (it's on the warm side) as the Vayus.

I personally reckon the Vayus could at least go head to head with the Dynaudio C1s.

The sound staging of the Vayu is immense - we're looking at 2.5m in width and at least the same in depth, when placed 1.4m apart on a desk. They have a fantastic sweet spot. The RAAL 70-20XR doesn't suffer from anywhere near the limited sort of sweet spot as with conventional tweeters.

The Vayus are now driven with an Audio-Gd Master 7 DAC and ClassDAudio SDS-470. When sat at said desk, the system sounds like a pair of high-end headphones, by which i mean that pressure/solidity of imaging when the system just gets it right. It's simply amazing how you can have sounds coming a good metre behind you.

Regarding your amp choice, I have not much experience with that model, but I'm pretty confident that they should be fine.

Ryan and Pete have truly allowed me to bypass speakers in the $5-10/12K range. That is incredible quality and value.

I will be upgrading to at least a cirrus when i do save up enough for them, but the Vayus are bloody hell good for their price. Ryan and Pete are great craftsmen, and will deliver only something they are comfortable with. The wait will be variable, and you will need to check with them for more info.

Again, this is just a single person's opinion, but i truly think for the same amount of money as an LS50/HL5, you're better off with a bespoke speaker from Vapor.

All the best!

[RDavidson]

I really enjoy my LS50's, but keep in mind they're small. Yes, they're surprisingly very robust, especially in a room of appropriate size. The Croft should be enough power, though the KEF's do seem to like some current behind them. Their character is neutral enough to sound good to excellent with all types of music. As these pop up on the used market with some regularity, I suggest giving them a try. If they aren't your cup of tea, selling them should be painless. If anything, they'd serve as an excellent benchmark for you while you figure out what you REALLY want.

Harbeths are universally praised and for good reason, but keep in mind that their character might not suit the types of music you primarily listen to. Not that they'll ever sound bad per se, but if you listen to mostly rock (for example) they may not be the best choice. Also, keep in mind that Harbeth designs each of their speakers for specific room sizes. So special attention should be made to the room size / shape and the location of the speakers in the room, to get the best from them. Yes, I know all speakers sound best with careful placement, but Harbeth is the only manufacturer that comes to mind that says that speaker X is designed for rooms of Y size. This makes Harbeths somewhat of a niche product (within a niche). The price makes them more of an "investment" too, so I'd have a hard time really making a recommendation here unless you're able to trial them first or find a dealer where you can listen.

I cannot comment on Vapor as I haven't heard them......BUT wow, the bang for the buck is through the roof. Hard to go wrong here. The customization of them can be a double edged sword for the buyer, though. If you get Vapor speakers, then decide later you wish to upgrade or whatever, selling your set could be difficult (as everyone has different tastes and decor and other decision makers in their lives). My only recommendation would be to stick with fairly neutral finishes (neutral paint colors like black, metallic gray, maybe silver in moderation, and wood tones that are natural brown tones ie not too red or too gold / yellow) which most find attractive and wouldn't be difficult to fit into most living spaces.

[pankon]

...
I cannot comment on Vapor as I haven't heard them......BUT wow, the bang for the buck is through the roof. Hard to go wrong here
....

Thanks, RDavidson. I am not looking at hi-fi audio as a 'sport' or a competition, where you always need to do better, and especially better than others. As long as I find a piece of equipment, which is pleasing to my ears, lets me enjoy the music and is reasonably priced, then I can eagerly choose that piece and live with it piece for many, many years, perhaps for ever. Why 'upgrade'? Why should I need that? To show off my expensive hi-fi system to my buddies or demonstrate my 'knowledge' of the domain? Well, that's not me.
My amplifiers are hand-made by Glenn Croft, a genius in the UK, who's been building valve amplifiers for 30 years now. No frills, no special/expensive looks, no remote control, but beguiling, immersive sound and a terrific value for money. And I do not mind that Croft is more of a one-man show than a huge company. I love hand-made objects.
I expect the same special attention to detail from Vapor. It seems that Vapor also love what they do. And feeling proud of what one does and offers, whether it's goods or services, can be a very strong driver for excellence.
I hope that the Vapor speakers can be another revelation for me, just like my beloved Croft amps were in 1989, when I first bought my Croft SuperMicro preamp.

[RDavidson]

Thanks, RDavidson. I am not looking at hi-fi audio as a 'sport' or a competition, where you always need to do better, and especially better than others. As long as I find a piece of equipment, which is pleasing to my ears, lets me enjoy the music and is reasonably priced, then I can eagerly choose that piece and live with it piece for many, many years, perhaps for ever. Why 'upgrade'? Why should I need that? To show off my expensive hi-fi system to my buddies or demonstrate my 'knowledge' of the domain? Well, that's not me.
My amplifiers are hand-made by Glenn Croft, a genius in the UK, who's been building valve amplifiers for 30 years now. No frills, no special/expensive looks, no remote control, but beguiling, immersive sound and a terrific value for money. And I do not mind that Croft is more of a one-man show than a huge company. I love hand-made objects.
I expect the same special attention to detail from Vapor. It seems that Vapor also love what they do. And feeling proud of what one does and offers, whether it's goods or services, can be a very strong driver for excellence.
I hope that the Vapor speakers can be another revelation for me, just like my beloved Croft amps were in 1989, when I first bought my Croft SuperMicro preamp.

Hmmmm.......not sure where my suggestions lead you to believe that you should "upgrade for sport" or should do so to "show off." I buy what I like and could care less what others think, too. Sometimes I upgrade equipment because there's better to be had or I'd like to try something different. I think this is the case for most in this hobby. Sometimes lifestyle changes force system changes. Everyone has their reasons for their choices. You never expressed your position, so I made general recommendations as well as offered suggestions on how you might find the best way to the end of your audio journey. We all know there is no absolute BEST, so if you came here honestly asking "What's best?" , only you know what is best for you. Typically this takes some trial and error (ie experience). You never even told us what speakers you currently have, nor your room size, nor the types of music you mostly enjoy. Soooooo?

[pankon]

Hmmmm.......not sure where my suggestions lead you to believe that you should "upgrade for sport" or should do so to "show off." I buy what I like and could care less what others think, too. Sometimes I upgrade equipment because there's better to be had or I'd like to try something different. I think this is the case for most in this hobby. Sometimes lifestyle changes force system changes. Everyone has their reasons for their choices. You never expressed your position, so I made general recommendations as well as offered suggestions on how you might find the best way to the end of your audio journey. We all know there is no absolute BEST, so if you came here honestly asking "What's best?" ,only you know what is best for you. Typically this takes some trial and error. You never even told us what speakers you currently have, nor your room size, nor the types of music you mostly enjoy. Soooooo?

Hi RDavidson (again), in order not to be misinterpreted, I was not referring personally to you or your post. It was just a general statement about many people who prefer to choose the big brands and the expensive stuff just to make a statement of some sort, to satisfy more their ego than their ears. People like that would just look down on Vapors and the likes.
Being small (as a company) may have certain shortcomings but does not mean the value you offer is by definition small. Sometimes it can be quite the contrary.

Once I asked a wine expert about how to detect a great wine. "A great wine is the one you like...", he said, "irrespective of what we -experts- say". It made perfect sense.

As a matter of fact, I agree with what you said in your last post. And again, sorry for the misunderstanding.

My system is made up of Roksan Xerxes / Rega RB300 / Dynavector, Marantz CD6003, Arcam irDAC (in delivery), Croft Micro25 and Croft Series7, Snell EII and Harbeth P3ESR.

[RDavidson]

No problem. Thank you for the clarification.
Also, thank you for posting your system components.

Looks like you prefer speakers on the slightly warm and inviting side. Me too.

What I suggest is talking to Vapor. I kind of forgot about this, but aside from aesthetic choices, they can also make parts changes / upgrades (ie, change internal wiring, caps, binding posts, etc. etc.) to tailor fit you as best possible. With something tailored to your wants / needs and built to such a high level, you'd have a very difficult time going wrong.

[pankon]

No problem. Thank you for the clarification.
Also, thank you for posting your system components.

Looks like you prefer speakers on the slightly warm and inviting side. Me too.

What I suggest is talking to Vapor. I kind of forgot about this, but aside from aesthetic choices, they can also make parts changes / upgrades (ie, change internal wiring, caps, binding posts, etc. etc.) to tailor fit you as best possible. With something tailored to your wants / needs and built to such a high level, you'd have a very difficult time going wrong.

I am already in touch with Ryan about a Cirrus Black. It's a bit difficult to customize a sound that I have not ever heard, but what I imagine is the clarity of an electrostatic (the ribbon twitter) combined with the dynamics of a good box speaker.

I am looking forward to pairing a set of Cirrus with my trusted Croft amplifiers. My instinct tells me it can be an thrilling match.

Cheers.

[RDavidson]

I am already in touch with Ryan about a Cirrus Black. It's a bit difficult to customize a sound that I have not ever heard, but what I imagine is the clarity of an electrostatic (the ribbon twitter) combined with the dynamics of a good box speaker.

I am looking forward to pairing a set of Cirrus with my trusted Croft amplifiers. My instinct tells me it can be an thrilling match.

Cheers.

Very true, though I believe your general assessment is correct, based on the components used and the design philosophy. What Ryan should be able to do is make some further fine adjustments. He already offers the white and black versions of the same essential speaker, which share the same overall sound, but one leans to the softer, warmer, side, and the other leans to the faster, cleaner, maybe more informative side. What you might do is just go with the stock Cirrus Black. You could always change internal wiring or caps later, if you wish to tinker with them a bit more. Even if you're not handy with a soldering kit, you could always just procure the parts and have a local shop take care of soldering for you. I guess what I'm trying to say is you still have options (utilizing the same speakers) even after you receive them. With Harbeths or KEF's, I'd be a little wary to customize them.

[pankon]

Yes, the Cirrus Black is the candidate I am considering. I would not consider the Cirrus White, because of the need to add a subwoofer. I think that the subwoofer is an additional parameter which is rather difficult to properly integrate with a speaker.
I wonder whether there are things that owners of the Cirrus Black would like to be changed, in order to further improve the sound quality.

[JP78]

In my humble experience, there's been no exception to really enjoying a speaker and amp pairing without the numbers making sense; specifically speaker sensitivity with amplifier power. 

You have a larger volume room and are sitting a good bit away; it's hard for me to understand how 87 dB/w/m speaker will match well with 45 watts.  While bass may not be a priority for a full-range speaker, efficiency matching needs to be very closely examined.

I've listened to the Nimbus and really do respect the sound and the obvious tremendous value.  As this was in a show setting there is only so much emphasis that can be placed on the experience.  In this setting it was still very obvious that the Nimbus just sounds right, and is a speaker of exceptional value and promise.

I have no firstand experience with Croft amplification.  I have owned several pairs of speakers though and also several high powered tube amplifiers, my favorite of which was a Bel Canto SETi40 (40wpc Class A SET amplifier).   I had the opportunity to pair this amplifier with speakers from Dynaudio, Gallo Acoustics, and VMPS in my home setting.    The Bel Canto is a beast of an amplifier, being 70lbs and having very high current capabilities and large transformers.  Despite the power rating and the current capabilities, there was a very obvious limit on ultimate dynamics and freedom in sound when paired with the(88db)  Dynaudio Special 25, and to some extent the (88db) Gallo Reference 3.  The VMPS RM40, at 90dB, loses less power over distance and for me behaved roughly as a conventional 93db speaker.  The difference in these sensitivities was not subtle in terms of how the Bel Canto handled the VMPS.  To contrast, I have also owned a Spectron Musician III amplifier (800wpc at 4 ohms) which performed as a  brilliant amplifier in it's own right when I had paired with an SET preamplifier.

I think many people commonly assume that a certain power rating will only limit maximum SPL; in my experience I've found available power to also shift the sound and potential of the speaker itself.

If your budget comfortably affords it I can't help but recommend you consider the significantly more efficient Nimbus and some GIK room treatments (under advisement of GIK and Nimbus) to go with your future Croft.  GIK is another company in line with Vapor and Croft in that they have a very loyal following, excellent fit and finish, and superb value for the dollar.  Regardless of your decisions, I think you must view the room treatments as an equally important decision and component as the speakers and the amplifier.   In some cases room treatments will impact sound quality and enjoyment more than the speaker or amplifier decisions.  With the limitless options in room treatments today it is very possible to tastefully integrate into the decor.

Kind Regards,

[Dragon_vibe]

One of the members here mentioned about buying speakers with out listening to them, I agree this is an unwise move and normally I would not do this. However I would like to advise that I have already placed an order for the "Perfect Storm" and the "Stiff Breeze" with out listening to them. I live now In Indonesia for a number of years. Under normal circumstances I would never purchase anything with out hearing it. However considering the Drivers being used here and the components together with a solid construction techniques used for the Cabinets felt to me as a no brainer.

Nat Audio Speakers sell over 100,000 dollars and they use audio technology drivers in there speakers, Actually I cant find any speaker less then 35,000 dollars using Audio Technology woofers.

[pankon]

...
If your budget comfortably affords it I can't help but recommend you consider the significantly more efficient Nimbus and some GIK room treatments (under advisement of GIK and Nimbus) to go with your future Croft.  ...

JP78, thanks for your detailed recommendation. I understand where you are coming from and indeed it is reasonable to consider whether a Nimbus would be a better choice than the Cirrus Black to accompany my Croft amplifiers. Then again, if you one reaches the budget of a Nimbus, would it be worthwhile to stretch a bit more and look at the possibility of a Joule (Black or White)?

Is the Joule (Black or White) a better value than the Nimbus or the Cirrus Black in terms of sonic performance / price ratio?

Thanks

[JP78]

Hello pankon,

I'm afraid I am not well-qualified to answer that question, as I have no experience with either version of the Joule or Cirrus.  My listening has been limited to the Nimbus, which in my experience seemed like it was priced at half as what I would have expected for this type of fit, finish, and performance. Of course, if Vapor did sell through retailers, the cost would be double. 

Best,

[sharpsuxx]

Having heard the Joule and the Nimbus I think the Joule does edge out the nimbus in performance.  The Nimbus has a whole new type of bass than what I have heard before and it is very fun and exciting in a room.  The Joule is far more refined through the mid range and has more composed bass performance.  Both of them would sell for easily double their asking price on a showroom floor so I think the value is there with either.  It is all about how much of your hard earned money you are willing to part with.  My personal favorites in the lineup are the Joule's and I hope to someday trade my Cirrus in on a pair, for now though I am more than happy with my Cirrus, it is just lacking in the really deep bass compared to the Nimbus or the Joule, but has a bit more refinement through the mid range than the Nimbus, the Joule does both really well.  I prefer a speaker that has more refinement than a larger frequency response.  But that is just me.

[JP78]

sharpsuxx - Thank you for sharing; it really makes me want to go out and listen to the Joule.  Can you please let me know which version of the Nimbus and Joule you listen to, and which version of the Cirrus you have?  Having had such limited exposure to listening to Vapor I'm trying to get a better understanding on the White v Black voicings.

RE: Cirrus, I've no doubt it's a fine speaker and look forward to auditioning them one day.  I never meant to dismiss the Cirrus but only wanted to make a case for a more efficient speaker since the OP wants to use a 45WPC amplifier.

Best,

[Dragon_vibe]

Get the Joul,

Add 2 Smaller Subs into the room to give it an extra push on the lowest octaves.

[Vapor Audio]

Get the Joul,

Add 2 Smaller Subs into the room to give it an extra push on the lowest octaves.

I understand the idea behind that suggestion, but in reality I can't say that I've ever heard bass as tuneful and accurate as that from the Joule.  Troels in his work agrees that the AudioTech Sandwich cone 10C77 is the finest woofer of that size available, but when you combine it with a smoothly tapering Transmission Line (not to be confused with other companies stepped TL's, or Quarter Wave TL's) that nearly completely eliminates midrange resonances, the result is better than any subwoofer setup I've yet heard. 

Honestly if you wanted more bottom end reinforcement from the Joule, the proper way to do it would be have us build a pair of subs with the 13" AT Sandwich Cone and put them in a stand-alone 10:1 tapering TL stacked-ply cabinet. 

[Tyson]

My rec would be to go with Vapor speakers.  But only because they are objectively better. 

[Dragon_vibe]

I understand the idea behind that suggestion, but in reality I can't say that I've ever heard bass as tuneful and accurate as that from the Joule.  Troels in his work agrees that the AudioTech Sandwich cone 10C77 is the finest woofer of that size available, but when you combine it with a smoothly tapering Transmission Line (not to be confused with other companies stepped TL's, or Quarter Wave TL's) that nearly completely eliminates midrange resonances, the result is better than any subwoofer setup I've yet heard. 

Honestly if you wanted more bottom end reinforcement from the Joule, the proper way to do it would be have us build a pair of subs with the 13" AT Sandwich Cone and put them in a stand-alone 10:1 tapering TL stacked-ply cabinet.

I did not realise you guys make subs, I would be interested in this later on possibly for my Perfect Storms

[Dragon_vibe]

Come to think of it the perfect storm will have a 15 inch woofer I guess a subwoofer is not needed??