[jmimac351]

I know there is a GIK Circle; however, I suspect there are some here who have experience with the GIK Acoustics 244 Bass Trap panels...and likely with multi-driver OB speakers.  There are 10 GIK 244 panels available locally and I'd like to quickly figure out if these will be a good option for long overdue front wall treatment.  I have not measured the room, but I figure it needs diffusion on the front wall / TV - no matter what.

The 244 panels are the 24" x 48" rectangular panels.  They are noted as bass traps; however, they also mention "patented FlexRange Technology", as well as "Scatter Plates" that can be installed when you order them for diffusion.  I don't think any of the panels for sale have that scatter plates built in for diffusion, but will check. 

I wonder if these are a good idea to go vertical behind each speaker on the wall, at the angular reflection spot to the seating position?  For the TV, I thought I could have a couple of their brackets just above the TV, then R&R the 244 panel horizontally when I feel like it.  Other bass traps could go in front corners, and even be used for a entire second room.

I have seen the diffusion panels that Danny uses and are common for many - but I think the GIK 244 are a cleaner look.  I can probably get away with using the panels commonly used, if necessary.

Thanks for any experience / advice. 

[Jaytor]

I used the GIK 6” absorber/diffuser panels on my front wall initially and was not happy with the results. I actually preferred the sound with no treatments behind the speakers better.

Then I tried quadratic residue diffusers from ATS and these were a big improvement. Really nice deep soundstage without sucking the life out of the music.

I wrapped the diffusers in Guilford of Maine fabric and they look quite nice. Here are a couple photos before and after wrapping with fabric.

[jmimac351]

That was extremely helpful.  Thank you!!!

I'll go down that path as I've seen / experienced that stuff before.

[dpatters]

I’m in agreement with Jaytor. I also moved from GIK 244s to the ATS diffusers.


Don P

[Glady86]

I got stuff all over the place, sometimes I rearrange it and see how I like it. This is my most recent experiment.
 Next I need to paint the floor. 

 The diffusers do nice things, IMO.


 This is my man cave, ladies think I’m nuts and it’s ugly, I don’t care though.

[Charles Xavier]

[Glady86]

See, it can be done to look nice too. I think the only thing I could do that would be a step up is move the tv out of the middle, but that’s not an option.

[jmimac351]

Thanks guys!  This is very interesting.  I've been compiling things here and there for when I finally started fooling with treatment.  One thing I came across was this Stereophile article from a few years ago.  I thought it was very interesting, not just with the facility, but some pretty definitive opinions about diffusion. 

See article here:  https://www.stereophile.com/content/nwaa-labs-measurement-beyond-atomic-level



One thing mentioned in the article, in particular, was about Quadratic Residue Diffusers, like the ATS. 



So, I kept pulling on the string and did a search for names (Norm Varney) in the article and found this... what was described in the article:

https://avroomservice.com/diffusers/

Maybe something else to chew on 

[WGH]

In addition to selling diffusers like the PolyFlex, AV Room Service has an extensive library about acoustics, bass and rooms.

Published articles written by or about Norman Varney and AV RoomService
https://avroomservice.com/articles/

[Glady86]

Those black panels beside my speakers are GIK Polyfusers. They absorb some lower frequencies and defuse the upper range. Just like learning to interpret measurements with REW, room treatments are a whole new rabbit hole to fall in.

 I think I have better luck just using my ears, though I keep trying to learn more about using measurements and the right way to use room treatments.

 I also think the diffusers help imaging, so I don’t know what the guy in the article you posted is talking about.

[WGH]

I also think the diffusers help imaging, so I don’t know what the guy in the article you posted is talking about.

This article has a more in depth explanation about diffusion and imaging
R&D Stories: Acoustic Diffusion Research by Norman Varney
https://audioxpress.com/article/r-d-stories-acoustic-diffusion-research#new_tab

"Frequency and spatial irregularities are especially problematic in small rooms, such as recording studios and listening rooms. Adding diffusion to the room is almost always beneficial. Acoustic diffusion removes the hard, specular room reflections that interfere with the direct sound of the loudspeakers. They are typically used to control first-order reflections, enhance surround sound envelopment, control flutter echoes, and/or to add more aural openness and sparkle to the space."

"I have learned quite a bit over the years. Probably the most significant takeaway is that diffusion is misapplied by end-users more often than not, therefore, not performing as designed."

The PolyFlex diffusers eliminate a lot of the variables that can cause diffusion to go in the wrong direction.


You probably have the perfect diffuser placed perfectly for your room. Everything changes what we hear, a guy in our audio group has tried all types of room treatments... all at once.
The room treatments include:
Skyline diffusers
Absorbers
DIY Mpingo disks (without being "treated with a proprietary process that gives the disc a unique property to regulate the resonance of any sonic component and its transmission")
Masks, which probably perform like small cylindrical diffusers
Wood corner towers with ebony cylinders balanced in a cradle




During the Fritz Carbon 7 speaker demo (on the chairs) we suggested removing some of the square absorbers and the room sounded much better. Notice the four empty picture hanging hooks on the wall.
Does the room sound spectacularly better than other rooms in our audio group? Nope. I think my room with zero treatments images better.

[Jaytor]

Keep in mind that the optimal acoustic treatments are going to depend a lot on the room dimensions and speaker dispersion patterns. A speaker with directivity control like a horn speaker is going to need very different treatments than an open baffle speaker. So blanket statements about what works best are pretty much meaningless, particularly if the type of speakers the author is using are significantly different than what you are using.

[jmimac351]

Keep in mind that the optimal acoustic treatments are going to depend a lot on the room dimensions and speaker dispersion patterns. A speaker with directivity control like a horn speaker is going to need very different treatments than an open baffle speaker. So blanket statements about what works best are pretty much meaningless, particularly if the type of speakers the author is using are significantly different than what you are using.

That's a good point.  I've noticed that the PIAudio diffusers come in a version that specifically mentions open baffle.  That's the center panel Danny has in the videos.  I think he has the QRD diffusers from that same place in the corners.  The treatment I want to do is with Otica / NX-Treme in mind.  With the Duette, I already have the best sound I've ever had.  My current room treatment consists of using a laser to set exactly 10 degree off axis to my seating position.  I aim at a dot on a target.

[Glady86]

I know you can get into this deep, and it would be easier but  expensive to have a professional evaluate your room. For example there are diffusers of different depths they could specify for your particular room and the frequency response you have.

 One thing I noticed though, is they tend to want to put panels everywhere. Bass traps even on the ceiling and wall corners. I know most rooms would need lots of traps to get that “perfect” bass response, but I’m not sure it would be worth it, at least in my opinion. Also, you could end up with a room that’s over treated and like some found, “sucks the life out of it”. I think I’d rather have a less than ideal frequency response versus a dead sounding room, though I guess its possible to achieve both.

Room treatments I tried affected the spatial cues, imaging and soundstage and that’s what I’m listening for when making changes.

Now a recording studio is a whole different thing, and I think and should be approached differently.

Also, when I’m messing around with room measurements you see how small changes in the mic position’s changes the measured response, though if I move my position or around the room I hear small differences but it still sounds good. My point is other than fixing serious flaws in the response, chasing a “perfect” measured response would be a waste of time.

 I tried DIRAC live with previous speakers and I never got subjectivity better sound though it measured better. I kept thinking I wasn’t doing something right, but after trying different techniques repeatedly till I burned myself out, I decided it’s not for me.

[Tyson]

One of the advantages of OB bass is it eliminates 1 room mode (side to side).  The 2nd room mode (floor to ceiling) can be EQ'd out.  And the 3rd room mode (front wall to back wall) can be dealt with by moving the speakers and/or the listening seat.  IME, bass traps are not really needed once you go full OB.

[Glady86]

That's a good point.  I've noticed that the PIAudio diffusers come in a version that specifically mentions open baffle.  That's the center panel Danny has in the videos.  I think he has the QRD diffusers from that same place in the corners.  The treatment I want to do is with Otica / NX-Treme in mind.  With the Duette, I already have the best sound I've ever had.  My current room treatment consists of using a laser to set exactly 10 degree off axis to my seating position.  I aim at a dot on a target.

 Interesting, I never end up having both speakers set at the exact same toe in to make the imaging snap in focus. It could be a number of factors as to why. the way sound waves react to the room and the difference between a couch on one side and audio gear on the other.

[Glady86]

One of the advantages of OB bass is it eliminates 1 room mode (side to side).  The 2nd room mode (floor to ceiling) can be EQ'd out.  And the 3rd room mode (front wall to back wall) can be dealt with by moving the speakers and/or the listening seat.  IME, bass traps are not really needed once you go full OB.

 I have gotten better flatter measured response with my sealed subs and manipulation with EQ,  but they certainly never sounded as good as the OB subs without any EQ.

[jmimac351]

Good feedback about OB sub bass / traps.  My main room... the speakers don't have "side walls to deal with".  Exit stage right and it's 20' into an open dining area / foyer... stage left is 8' - 12' of space to a non-linear wall with French doors that goes outside onto lanai.  To the rear of me is another 20'+ into a large kitchen.  The ceilings are tall.  It's big.

Sound really blooms in here, it's a big room that probably wants NX-Treme... except for this pesky front wall I need to "push back" with treatment.

[Denton J]

I use their combo traps directly behind speakers in a couple of separate set ups.

[timind]

I use GIK Polyfusors behind my speakers. Happy with the result. Prior to the Polyfusors I was using some QRD types.