I bet I can make your speakers sound better.

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S Clark

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #160 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:39 pm »
You guys aren't going to change each other's minds. Let it go. 
 :deadhorse:
I remember reading there are no differences in amps... so just buy the cheapest watts.  And if a speaker measures flat, it must be good, right? 
Cables are just wire.  Fine, but when you tell me I'm not hearing what I hear, you can shove it, as I'll trust my ears, no matter how bad they are, over your opinion.

But the original post was a statement that Danny could make your speakers sound better.  I can only speak to my experience, and it's true.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #161 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:42 pm »
OK, you two have nothing to prove to one another. Both of you seem fully entrenched in your views, and no "meeting of the minds" is gonna change that. 

Audio is primarily an objective approach for the designer, but it's a totally subjective experience for the listener. If the placebo effect or expectation bias is actually proven to be the reason someone says it sounds better, then that's great! Any attempt to justify with measurements why someone likes what they hear represents a lack of understanding of science. Psychology is a science. Try measuring that.


 

It's totally OK to have these discussions.  There's no benefit from shutting them down.  It's gives people the chance to know each other better.  We're all music fans here, and audio fans as well.

I'm opposed to the "people like it, so who cares" attitude.  There are some major misconceptions out there that are better off dispelled, often propagated by manufacturers.  Isn't there anything out there you would consider "snake oil"?

Let's take cable lifters for example.  If the manufacturer says something like "these look cool", that's perfectly OK, but claiming that they'll somehow improve the sound (with no proof, because it's a lie) is simply not OK.  I don't know anyone that enjoys being lied to.  The fact is, if you claim to hear it, but it can't be measured (by any means), you're somehow biased.

Anyway, off to do some serious (seriously fun) listening....  ;D
« Last Edit: 9 Apr 2019, 01:55 am by AmpDesigner333 »

Danny Richie

Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #162 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:46 pm »
You guys go easy on Tommy. He has his beliefs and that's okay. Who among us has never been skeptical of the latest tweak? And he has always been civil to me. I can't wait to do some listening together with him. 

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #163 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:48 pm »
You don't have to exhibit. Just come down to listen, learn, and make new friends. It will be worth it on all accounts.
Can't just pick up and go due to family obligations, but your invite is greatly appreciated.  Can you make it to AXPONA, even if it's just for one day?

We will definitely get together at some point, and maybe some collaboration will show people that just because we don't see everything the same way, doesn't mean we can't combine our creative ideas and make something amazing!

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #164 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:52 pm »
You guys aren't going to change each other's minds. Let it go. 
 :deadhorse:
I remember reading there are no differences in amps... so just by the cheapest watts.  And if a speaker measures flat, it must be good, right? 
Cables are just wire.  Fine, but when you tell me I'm not hearing what I hear, you can shove it,l as I'll trust my ears, no matter how bad they are, over your opinion.

But the original post was a statement that Danny could make your speakers sound better.  I can only speak to my experience, and it's true.
"you can shove it" is a little extreme.  I argue with facts, not opinions.  We're just discussing stuff.  There's no need for animosity (or vulgarity).   :P

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #165 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:53 pm »
You guys go easy on Tommy. He has his beliefs and that's okay. Who among us has never been skeptical of the latest tweak? And he has always been civil to me. I can't wait to do some listening together with him.
Thanks, Danny.  You're a true gentleman (:

Danny Richie

Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #166 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:53 pm »
It's totally OK to have these discussions.  There's no benefit from shutting them down.  It's gives people the chance to know each other better.  We're all music fans here, and audio fans as well.

Yeah, we're fine. But we aren't going to convince anyone what can and can't be heard with talk. When we sit down and listen we can decide what we hear or don't hear.

Quote
I'm opposed to the "people like it, so who cares" attitude.  There are some major misconceptions out there that are better off dispelled, often propagated by manufacturers.  Isn't there anything out there you would consider "snake oil"?

We know there is some snake oil out there. Just look at Machina Dynamics.

Quote
Let's take cable lifters for example.  If the manufacturer says something "these look cool", that's perfectly OK, but claiming that they'll somehow improve the sound (with no proof, because it's a lie) is simply not OK.  I don't know anyone that enjoys being lied to.  The fact is, if you claim to hear it, but it can't be measured (by any means), you're somehow biased.

I'm pretty skeptical of some of that stuff, but I can't say what does or does not work for someone else. My best sounding speaker cables are pretty short and don't touch the floor. Better because they don't touch the floor? Or better because they are short? I'm going to go with short. 

Danny Richie

Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #167 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:59 pm »
Can't just pick up and go due to family obligations, but your invite is greatly appreciated.  Can you make it to AXPONA, even if it's just for one day?

We will definitely get together at some point, and maybe some collaboration will show people that just because we don't see everything the same way, doesn't mean we can't combine our creative ideas and make something amazing!

I can't make it to Axpona right now. I have too much going on and some other obligations.

Maybe we will collaborate on some stuff. I like your solid engineering approach, but I might want to combine that with some known tweaks and try a few other things. I really feel like there is another level of performance ahead of you. And you aren't going to believe that either until you hear it.

I might just have to have you come down for a few days during the summer. I'll put you up if you can get here.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #168 on: 2 Apr 2019, 11:05 pm »
Another something of interest.... Every person that I have had try tube connectors and have wired them in parallel to a set of binding posts so that they can swap between the two has reported an audible difference and a preference for the tube connectors.
Just wanted to mention that some amps have VERY high damping factor.  This means adding even a few mΩ between the speaker (or test load) will significantly decrease damping factor.  If your scheme is inherently lower resistance, and I suspect it is, you're on to something.

By the way, we use two different kinds of binding posts these days.  Some are connected via "fast-on" (Dayton posts used on lower priced Maraschinos) and some are soldered on (Gold WBTs on MEGAs, for example).  This causes a measurable difference in damping factor.  Lots of listeners claim to hear even small differences in damping factor, especially when it's wide-band.  In fact, I believe the reason some say that damping factor isn't very important is because they are using amps that don't have any significant damping left above 1kHz.  More on that some other time....

Geez, just realized how hungry I am while writing this.  My stomach is growling!  Have a great rest-of-your-day.

S Clark

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #169 on: 2 Apr 2019, 11:07 pm »
I should explain my defensive attitude.  Whenever someone tells me that I don't hear what I have experienced, I find it dogmatic and insulting. 
If I am mistaken and you are saying that I can hear a difference in wires, or whatever accessory, then it appears that you have changed your position.  I agree that the "shove it" comment is rude.  But so is arrogance.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #170 on: 2 Apr 2019, 11:08 pm »
I can't make it to Axpona right now. I have too much going on and some other obligations.

Maybe we will collaborate on some stuff. I like your solid engineering approach, but I might want to combine that with some known tweaks and try a few other things. I really feel like there is another level of performance ahead of you. And you aren't going to believe that either until you hear it.

I might just have to have you come down for a few days during the summer. I'll put you up if you can get here.
That would be AWESOME!!

What town?  My middle daughter wants to visit her friend this summer, and she might live close.

Danny Richie

Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #171 on: 2 Apr 2019, 11:12 pm »
That would be AWESOME!!

What town?  My middle daughter wants to visit her friend this summer, and she might live close.

GR Research
1716 Texowa Rd.
Iowa Park, TX  76367

I have two guest bedrooms.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #172 on: 2 Apr 2019, 11:14 pm »
I should explain my defensive attitude.  Whenever someone tells me that I don't hear what I have experienced, I find it dogmatic and insulting. 
If I am mistaken and you are saying that I can hear a difference in wires, or whatever accessory, then it appears that you have changed your position.  I agree that the "shove it" comment is rude.  But so is arrogance.
I appreciate you taking the time to write that.  Take a look at our circle here, and you'll see some commentary that goes along with the "hearing is everything" approach (not opposed to that):
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=174.0

I certainly don't expect the average listener to break out their $30,000 audio analyzer to see if their speakers are performing to spec!  OK, time for dinner, then music!

Danny Richie

Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #173 on: 2 Apr 2019, 11:42 pm »
Just wanted to mention that some amps have VERY high damping factor.  This means adding even a few mΩ between the speaker (or test load) will significantly decrease damping factor.  If your scheme is inherently lower resistance, and I suspect it is, you're on to something.

FYI, I just took some measurements of various binding posts that I have in stock. Some I won't name, but most I will.

Vampire's best .23 ohms.
Eachman Copper .65 ohms.
Some cheesy looking Copper binding posts from something .29 ohms.
Some imported binding posts from EP .23 ohms.
CMC pure Copper .17 ohms.
Some pure Silver coated Copper binding posts .17 ohms.

And this was measuring the binding post only from end to end. They can also have some solder come into play plus the resistance of the spade or banana plug that will increase that quite a bit.

I inserted a male tube connector into the female end and measured them both together and got .15 ohms. Both ends can take up to 10 gauge wire that will insert all the way to each other (almost) so that could reduce resistance further.

I then measured just my alligator clip ends connected together so I was measuring my measuring cables, and also got .15 ohms.

So yes, the tube connectors measure very low resistance.

Oh yeah, imagine the cumulative effect of binding posts in the signal path with several in the signal path.

keantoken

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #174 on: 3 Apr 2019, 02:33 am »
All of those resistance values are alarmingly high. If I got those results I would be checking my measurement setup. My Fluke 8800A (hope I got that right) does 4-wire measurements and I get just 0.1ohm from 2 Sparkfun alligator jumpers in series. So Sparkfun alligator jumpers get less resistance than high current connectors? Should we all be using alligator clips?

Danny Richie

Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #175 on: 3 Apr 2019, 02:16 pm »
All of those resistance values are alarmingly high. If I got those results I would be checking my measurement setup. My Fluke 8800A (hope I got that right) does 4-wire measurements and I get just 0.1ohm from 2 Sparkfun alligator jumpers in series. So Sparkfun alligator jumpers get less resistance than high current connectors? Should we all be using alligator clips?

Mine also plug into the Clio using an RCA connector too. So they may have a little more in the mix.

SCM

Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #176 on: 8 Apr 2019, 06:07 pm »
Hi Danny. Could you pop on over to a thread I have revisited for some crossover help ??

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=94886.new#new

Danny Richie

Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #177 on: 8 Apr 2019, 08:38 pm »
Hi Danny. Could you pop on over to a thread I have revisited for some crossover help ??

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=94886.new#new

Wow. Are you sure they are worth saving?

If all the drivers work they can be upgraded pretty significantly. You could re-use the inductors, but the rest of that should hit the garbage. Replace everything else including all of the wiring.

And it looks like there is no bracing in that box either. You might want to address that with some braces and No Rez.

If you let me know what you need. I can provide you with everything. Even just some inexpensive Erse poly caps and Lynk resistors would be a big upgrade.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #178 on: 9 Apr 2019, 02:08 am »
All of those resistance values are alarmingly high. If I got those results I would be checking my measurement setup. My Fluke 8800A (hope I got that right) does 4-wire measurements and I get just 0.1ohm from 2 Sparkfun alligator jumpers in series. So Sparkfun alligator jumpers get less resistance than high current connectors? Should we all be using alligator clips?
I thought the same thing.  Seems pretty obvious that he’s not using a milli-ohmmeter or a current source.

Using a current source is recommended if you don’t have a mΩmeter.  All you need in addition to a standard DMM is a bench power supply that has a current limiter. Hook a high wattage resistor in series with the connection being tested (like 8Ω).  This keeps the power supply from bottoming out. 1A works ok, but even better if you have a 10A supply (use lower resistance). Apply the current through the connection and measure the voltage across the connector.  Use V=IR, and there you have it!

Danny Richie

Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #179 on: 9 Apr 2019, 04:02 pm »
I thought the same thing.  Seems pretty obvious that he’s not using a milli-ohmmeter or a current source.

Using a current source is recommended if you don’t have a mΩmeter.  All you need in addition to a standard DMM is a bench power supply that has a current limiter. Hook a high wattage resistor in series with the connection being tested (like 8Ω).  This keeps the power supply from bottoming out. 1A works ok, but even better if you have a 10A supply (use lower resistance). Apply the current through the connection and measure the voltage across the connector.  Use V=IR, and there you have it!

Yeah, that brought them back in line. Good thinking.

Vampire's best 8.17 ohms.
Eachman Copper 8.20 ohms.
Some cheesy looking Copper binding posts from something 8.19 ohms.
Some imported binding posts from EP 8.19 ohms.
CMC pure Copper 8.18 ohms.
Some pure Silver coated Copper binding posts 8.18 ohms.
Tube connector with male tube connector end 8.16 ohms.

The tube connectors still have less resistance and it was the only one in the group that I used a connector with. And I used them hollow and not with high gauge wire inside of them.