I bet I can make your speakers sound better.

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Danny Richie

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #140 on: 2 Apr 2019, 07:16 pm »
What is the contact resistance of this versus a normal binding post and banana plug connection?

The performance difference these offer isn't about the resistance differences.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #141 on: 2 Apr 2019, 07:50 pm »
The performance difference these offer isn't about the resistance differences.
What else could possibly make a difference considering the impedances involved?  Have you measured the resistance?  Thanks.

Vedder323

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #142 on: 2 Apr 2019, 08:05 pm »
Danny,

Would be interesting to see your take on the Gallo Strada speakers. I have a pair I could send over for you to play with.

-Ron
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Danny Richie

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #143 on: 2 Apr 2019, 08:32 pm »
What else could possibly make a difference considering the impedances involved?  Have you measured the resistance?  Thanks.

Resistance isn't the issue. If it was only about resistance then a 5/16" steel bolt would sound about the same as a 16 gauge Copper wire. But it doesn't. Each time you insert something into the signal path there is some form of degradation of the signal. And larger pieces of large and small mass changes of dissimilar materials can really cause problems.

And often a low mass connector is much better than a high mass design. The ETI Research RCA ends function along the same principles. Read about them here:  http://www.eti-research.com.au/

Danny Richie

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #144 on: 2 Apr 2019, 08:35 pm »
Danny,

Would be interesting to see your take on the Gallo Strada speakers. I have a pair I could send over for you to play with.

-Ron
New Record Day

I have found them to be pretty thin down low and hard to get them to play down low enough to reach a sub. I don't think there was any compensation for the step loss on the woofers either. That might be another reason for why they sound so thin. But they have nothing for surface area around the drivers and image great.

Danny Richie

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #145 on: 2 Apr 2019, 08:37 pm »
Tommy, I'd love to set you down in from of one of my audio systems for a day or two so you could hear differences in these things and many other things that you are resistant to accepting. Just swapping out a USB cable would change your world forever.

Danny Richie

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #146 on: 2 Apr 2019, 08:42 pm »
What else could possibly make a difference considering the impedances involved?  Have you measured the resistance?  Thanks.

Another something of interest.... Every person that I have had try tube connectors and have wired them in parallel to a set of binding posts so that they can swap between the two has reported an audible difference and a preference for the tube connectors.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better. -- bet you can't
« Reply #147 on: 2 Apr 2019, 09:33 pm »
Tommy, I'd love to set you down in from of one of my audio systems for a day or two so you could hear differences in these things and many other things that you are resistant to accepting. Just swapping out a USB cable would change your world forever.
Danny,

I'd love to set you down in from of one of my audio systems for a day or two so you could hear what makes a difference and what doesn't.  I can also show you how easy it is to get someone to say there's a difference when it's not even possible.  As you probably know, I'm an EE with more than 30 years design experience in all kinds of things (commercial, industrial, military), especially audio.  Measurement equipment can tell the difference between 0.001% and 0.002% THD+N, but no human can.  Same goes for 120dB vs 130dB SNR.  Same for 0.01Ω vs 0.002Ω.  When someone tells me they can hear something that can't be measured, I'm beyond skeptical.  To me, the burden of proof is on the people making claims, especially those not substantiated in science.  I've seen some crazy things in my time, and some cross the line hard when it comes to ethics.  I have some training in psych as well, and understand expectation bias.  Placebo effect is another frequently overlooked issue.  Don't get me started on ABX tests (almost nobody seems to know how to do a proper test, or what qualifies as an adequate sample space), which would at least provide some, albeit weak proof of outrageous claims like "this AC power fuse sounds better".  That kind of nonsense usually comes with loads of conjecture, hyperbole, and rhetoric (and often the word "quantum") -- because the manufacturer can't prove any difference at all, nonetheless an improvement, which is always the claim.  No measurements, just talk.  Imagine if investigators went on feelings rather than evidence.  Are you going to AXPONA?  I'll be there demoing a surround system what could break some records:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163293.0

-Tommy O

jtwrace

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better. -- bet you can't
« Reply #148 on: 2 Apr 2019, 09:44 pm »
Danny,

I'd love to set you down in from of one of my audio systems for a day or two so you could hear what makes a difference and what doesn't.  I can also show you how easy it is to get someone to say there's a difference when it's not even possible.  As you probably know, I'm an EE with more than 30 years design experience in all kinds of things (commercial, industrial, military), especially audio.  Measurement equipment can tell the difference between 0.001% and 0.002% THD+N, but no human can.  Same goes for 120dB vs 130dB SNR.  Same for 0.01Ω vs 0.002Ω.  When someone tells me they can hear something that can't be measured, I'm beyond skeptical.  To me, the burden of proof is on the people making claims, especially those not substantiated in science.  I've seen some crazy things in my time, and some cross the line hard when it comes to ethics.  I have some training in psych as well, and understand expectation bias.  Placebo effect is another frequently overlooked issue.  Don't get me started on ABX tests (almost nobody seems to know how to do a proper test, or what qualifies as an adequate sample space), which would at least provide some, albeit weak proof of outrageous claims like "this AC power fuse sounds better".  That kind of nonsense usually comes with loads of conjecture, hyperbole, and rhetoric (and often the word "quantum")--- because the manufacturer can't prove any difference at all, nonetheless an improvement, which is always the claim.  No measurements, just talk.  Imagine if investigators went on feelings rather than evidence.  Are you going to AXPONA?  I'll be there demoing a surround system what could break some records:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163293.0

-Tommy O
:thumb:

marvda1

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #149 on: 2 Apr 2019, 09:48 pm »
tommy, you could come to lone star audio fest, danny will be there.
marvin

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #150 on: 2 Apr 2019, 09:51 pm »
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/capturing-a-vibe/

"I can only imagine the angst this notion of capturing emotions must engender in our friends that believe everything can be measured."

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #151 on: 2 Apr 2019, 09:55 pm »
tommy, you could come to lone star audio fest, danny will be there.
marvin
When is it?

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #152 on: 2 Apr 2019, 09:56 pm »
https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/capturing-a-vibe/

"I can only imagine the angst this notion of capturing emotions must engender in our friends that believe everything can be measured."
Reminds me how they called truth seekers “conspiracy theorist” in an attempt to squash the truth.

marvda1

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Early B.

Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #154 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:03 pm »
OK, you two have nothing to prove to one another. Both of you seem fully entrenched in your views, and no "meeting of the minds" is gonna change that. 

Audio is primarily an objective approach for the designer, but it's a totally subjective experience for the listener. If the placebo effect or expectation bias is actually proven to be the reason someone says it sounds better, then that's great! Any attempt to justify with measurements why someone likes what they hear represents a lack of understanding of science. Psychology is a science. Try measuring that.


 

Danny Richie

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better. -- bet you can't
« Reply #155 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:04 pm »
Danny,

I'd love to set you down in from of one of my audio systems for a day or two so you could hear what makes a difference and what doesn't.  I can also show you how easy it is to get someone to say there's a difference when it's not even possible.  As you probably know, I'm an EE with more than 30 years design experience in all kinds of things (commercial, industrial, military), especially audio.  Measurement equipment can tell the difference between 0.001% and 0.002% THD+N, but no human can.  Same goes for 120dB vs 130dB SNR.  Same for 0.01Ω vs 0.002Ω.  When someone tells me they can hear something that can't be measured, I'm beyond skeptical.  To me, the burden of proof is on the people making claims, especially those not substantiated in science.  I've seen some crazy things in my time, and some cross the line hard when it comes to ethics.  I have some training in psych as well, and understand expectation bias.  Placebo effect is another frequently overlooked issue.  Don't get me started on ABX tests (almost nobody seems to know how to do a proper test, or what qualifies as an adequate sample space), which would at least provide some, albeit weak proof of outrageous claims like "this AC power fuse sounds better".  That kind of nonsense usually comes with loads of conjecture, hyperbole, and rhetoric (and often the word "quantum")--- because the manufacturer can't prove any difference at all, nonetheless an improvement, which is always the claim.  No measurements, just talk.  Imagine if investigators went on feelings rather than evidence.  Are you going to AXPONA?  I'll be there demoing a surround system what could break some records:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=163293.0

-Tommy O

I know where you're coming from and what you believe. I once thought along those lines too. Then back in about 2002 Dave Elledge showed up at my shop with some power cables that he swapped into my system and it changed everything.

I know all about the old placebo effects, physiological expectations, ABX comparisons, etc. I am even certified as a hypnotist.

All of that aside, if you can hear the difference between a early 80's cassette player and the latest digital gear or vinyl then you can hear the differences in a USB cable swap in my system. It won't matter what your expectations are. And if you can't hear the difference in those devices then you have no business being in this hobby.

And the measurement only engineers typically can't even tell me why all the different digital playback software's sound different. I have iTunes, Pure Music, Amarra, Audirvana, and SB Play. They only send out 1's and 0's right? But they all sound different.

Imagine if all we did was measure a system and not listen to it. Who needs music right? And whatever speaker measures the best will sound the best right? I can make two speakers measure exactly the same but sound very different.

Come down to Lone Star Audio Fest next month and we'll open those ears to a new reality.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better. -- bet you can't
« Reply #156 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:20 pm »
I know where you're coming from and what you believe. I once thought along those lines too. Then back in about 2002 Dave Elledge showed up at my shop with some power cables that he swapped into my system and it changed everything.

I know all about the old placebo effects, physiological expectations, ABX comparisons, etc. I am even certified as a hypnotist.

All of that aside, if you can hear the difference between a early 80's cassette player and the latest digital gear or vinyl then you can hear the differences in a USB cable swap in my system. It won't matter what your expectations are. And if you can't hear the difference in those devices then you have no business being in this hobby.

And the measurement only engineers typically can't even tell me why all the different digital playback software's sound different. I have iTunes, Pure Music, Amarra, Audirvana, and SB Play. They only send out 1's and 0's right? But they all sound different.

Imagine if all we did was measure a system and not listen to it. Who needs music right? And whatever speaker measures the best will sound the best right? I can make two speakers measure exactly the same but sound very different.

Come down to Lone Star Audio Fest next month and we'll open those ears to a new reality.
"They only send out 1's and 0's right? But they all sound different." -- No they don't, digital links either have errors or not, and typically when there are errors, the audio gets muted for protection against full scale glitching.  If you send a Word file over a better USB cable, is the grammar improved?

"I once thought along those lines too." -- Is that to imply that I haven't figured this stuff out yet?  This is the kind of pitch cult members use.

"Imagine if all we did was measure a system and not listen to it." -- Why do people even say such things?  Of course those who measure ALSO listen.  In fact, designers who do both rigorously and systematically learn the connections between what you measure and what you hear.  Those are the best designers.  Understanding the science and engineering behind it is required for optimal results.  Please don't tell me someone who learned circuits on YouTube (or by putting kits together) is as good of a equipment designer as an EE with both the degree AND the experience!

"some power cables that he swapped into my system and it changed everything" -- If you want to know my thought on power cables, read this:
https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-news/can-power-cords-have-an-effect-on-an-audio-systems-sound.html

I'd like you to understand that I'm all for the truth.  Definitive, measurable, reliably provable truth.  As for my feelings on music, that's a different thing all together.  I listen daily and experience all the emotion other listeners do.  I'm also a musician, or at least I play one on TV.

AmpDesigner333

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #157 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:24 pm »
first weekend in may.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=162522.msg1735793#new
Can't do it.  We typically do only one trade show/year in order to support our low margins and provide the customer with more value.

Danny Richie

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better. -- bet you can't
« Reply #158 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:37 pm »
"They only send out 1's and 0's right? But they all sound different." -- No they don't, digital links either have errors or not, and typically when there are errors, the audio gets muted for protection against full scale glitching.  If you send a Word file over a better USB cable, is the grammar improved?

There is also a lot of noise on the line that gets into the next level as well.

Quote
"I once thought along those lines too." -- Is that to imply that I haven't figured this stuff out yet?  This is the kind of pitch cult members use.

I wouldn't say that you haven't figured it out yet. That would imply that you lack the intelligence to understand it. You just haven't experienced the differences in this stuff yet.  Being skeptical is okay. Just don't be closed minded to it. I'm not unintelligent either and neither are my many customers that regularly swap out and compare everything from caps to cables.

Quote
"Imagine if all we did was measure a system and not listen to it." -- Why do people even say such things?  Of course those who measure ALSO listen.  In fact, designers who do both rigorously and systematically learn the connections between what you measure and what you hear.  Those are the best designers.  Understanding the science and engineering behind it is required for optimal results.  Please don't tell me someone who learned circuits on YouTube (or by putting kits together) is as good of a equipment designer as an EE with both the degree AND the experience!

I am one of those guys. I want to make the connection between what I hear and what I can measure. But I don't measure first and make an assumption on what I can't or can't hear. And everything that I design does start with measurements. However, I do listen. And sometimes differences can be quantified and measured and sometimes it isn't so easy.

Quote
"some power cables that he swapped into my system and it changed everything" -- If you want to know my thought on power cables, read this:
https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-news/can-power-cords-have-an-effect-on-an-audio-systems-sound.html

Yeah, you've made those views quite clear all over the internet and on Facebook. However, I noticed significant differences in the sound of your amps by swapping out power cables, and conditioning.

Quote
I'd like you to understand that I'm all for the truth.  Definitive, measurable, reliably provable truth.  As for my feelings on music, that's a different thing all together.  I listen daily and experience all the emotion other listeners do.  I'm also a musician, or at least I play one on TV.

I agree with all of that. Now come listen with me.

Danny Richie

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Re: I bet I can make your speakers sound better.
« Reply #159 on: 2 Apr 2019, 10:39 pm »
Can't do it.  We typically do only one trade show/year in order to support our low margins and provide the customer with more value.

You don't have to exhibit. Just come down to listen, learn, and make new friends. It will be worth it on all accounts.