OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3

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dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #40 on: 27 Sep 2022, 01:08 pm »
How many db are you hitting when the amp clips?

I'm around 80db-85db but it is highly track dependent for sure.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #41 on: 27 Sep 2022, 01:23 pm »
dallaire1, sounds like you have eliminated most of the easier to correct problems.  I would next verify that the source signal to the sub amps matches the specified input range.  For example, sub amp max input voltage rating 2.5 V.  If you supply more than 2.5 V, the amp is not going to behave well. 

Flat to 20Hz can sound desirable in theory, but might not work out well in practice.  There is almost no musical content below 30 HZ, unless synthesized or a huge pipe organ that can go down to 16 Hz.  I chased meaningful output below 40Hz with a Ripole sub driven by a sub amp with DSP.  Increasing the output at 35 Hz, 30 Hz, 25 Hz or 20 Hz did nothing but increase cone excursion to ridiculous levels without achieving gut pounding bass. In fact, just muddied up everything.  Setting 6db per octave roll-off below 40Hz and adjusting for as flat as possible in room response from 60 - 100 Hz yielded the best overall bass impact and clarity.   

I looked up the specs on the NAD M33 sub outs the other day, they put out 1.1v RMS at 680ohms, So it should mate up ok with the Rythmik amps. After moving subs to the inside I did do another Dirac correction again and found interestingly enough, Dirac considers the "usable" frequency range after it runs all of its sweeps. For the subs it wanted to limit the subs to 30hz. I pulled the curtain to the left to include just a "little" lower extension to about 27hz or so. I find it interesting that Dirac came up with a usable limit of 30hz, probably due to levels of distortion rising quickly. So I left it at that. The sound with Dirac engaged and used to integrate is pretty amazing I think. I have just come to the conclusion, its sounds great and musical, but I have to agree with you totally about limiting the low end and having the headroom on the amp instead is a much more pleasurable listening experience for sure.

Tyson

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #42 on: 27 Sep 2022, 03:59 pm »
I'm around 80db-85db but it is highly track dependent for sure.

That’s really low, you should be able to get close to 100.

BGA

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #43 on: 27 Sep 2022, 06:30 pm »
Just for fun you could try to use the pre out on the M33 and then use the internal crossover on the sub amp and turn Dirac off so it would eliminate any issues with the sub outs.


dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #44 on: 27 Sep 2022, 07:13 pm »
Leaving tomorrow on business for a few days. I will probably leave things as they are for a while and just listen... I do enjoy them ! might try some different things regarding low end in the near future.

Thanks for all the help guys !!

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #45 on: 27 Sep 2022, 07:35 pm »
Tyson is right. You should be able to hit 100 plus db peaks pretty easily.

Where are you located (just a city and state)?

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #46 on: 27 Sep 2022, 09:26 pm »
I totally believe you, I'm not doubting anyone. I just can't seem to get that SPL without clipping. I'm 14 hours from Wichita Falls, Texas. I'm in Phoenix, AZ. I would love to find some time and bring them to you Danny, hey maybe I overlooked something ?? The ONLY thing I could possibly imagine would be the woofer is not making a good seal for some reason where it meets the MDF and unloading the woofer. I didn't use any type of gasket seal of any kind as I figured the rubber gasket should be sufficient I would think. I torqued all screws the same. The only reason I bring this up is because I cut the holes per the drawing at 11" and ended up needing to recut the holes larger to I believe it was 11.25 inches and they seated just perfectly with NO wiggle room. Perhaps they are not seated air tight enough. The rubber gasket was touching seemingly flat though.

Also I Guess looking at the (4) ominous woofers staring at me playing loudly I thought I would FEEL a little something on bass peaks ? I realize it is a totally different design and for good reason of course. I love the sound of the bass and the fact that it decays immediately, for sure. However I thought I would have ended up with more headroom regarding the amp ? although the M3's are a pretty efficient speaker at 92db 1W/meter if a remember right ? And being a 4 ohm speaker, the amp outputs 370 watts per side.

Let me know Danny, I would love to get them in your hands for testing.

Bingenito

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #47 on: 28 Sep 2022, 12:18 am »
Might I suggest a quick FaceTime? Seems like either a connection opportunity (rule out simple first) then if not solved look at the integrated settings/ dirac


NoahH

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #48 on: 2 Oct 2022, 04:11 am »
I should chime in - I just realized I had a similar experience that was Dirac related.

I have a huge array of OB subs, and I was not thrilled with what I was hearing. I thought I tried everything. But I pulled my MiniDSP out and the low bass appeared. When I replaced it with an old Oppo 105, the base was suddenly there and punchy. I had tried turning Dirac off in the MiniDSP but there was still a weird weakness to it.

The MiniDSP had been great in upper frequencies, but it just murdered the bass.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #49 on: 5 Oct 2022, 11:03 pm »
 :dunno:

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #50 on: 6 Oct 2022, 08:59 pm »
MiniDSP's are not recommended for systems at this level.

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #51 on: 6 Oct 2022, 09:04 pm »
I totally believe you, I'm not doubting anyone. I just can't seem to get that SPL without clipping. I'm 14 hours from Wichita Falls, Texas. I'm in Phoenix, AZ. I would love to find some time and bring them to you Danny, hey maybe I overlooked something ?? The ONLY thing I could possibly imagine would be the woofer is not making a good seal for some reason where it meets the MDF and unloading the woofer. I didn't use any type of gasket seal of any kind as I figured the rubber gasket should be sufficient I would think. I torqued all screws the same. The only reason I bring this up is because I cut the holes per the drawing at 11" and ended up needing to recut the holes larger to I believe it was 11.25 inches and they seated just perfectly with NO wiggle room. Perhaps they are not seated air tight enough. The rubber gasket was touching seemingly flat though.

Also I Guess looking at the (4) ominous woofers staring at me playing loudly I thought I would FEEL a little something on bass peaks ? I realize it is a totally different design and for good reason of course. I love the sound of the bass and the fact that it decays immediately, for sure. However I thought I would have ended up with more headroom regarding the amp ? although the M3's are a pretty efficient speaker at 92db 1W/meter if a remember right ? And being a 4 ohm speaker, the amp outputs 370 watts per side.

Let me know Danny, I would love to get them in your hands for testing.

When we used them under the Super 7 they had to keep up with an upper driver that had 97 to 98db sensitivity. They did that easily and with room to spare.



Have you tried taking some room measurements?

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #52 on: 7 Oct 2022, 12:15 am »
At this point would suggest simplifying.  Eliminate variables.  So to speak, the more complicated the plumbing the more likely a problem will surface.  I know DIRAC is popular and DSP is widely used.  Personally, never could get Audyssey to properly adjust a Home Theater sound system.  Already mentioned DSP as an issue.  A modest application of DSP turned out the best.  More is better and too much just right does not work.

Strip the signal path down to the most direct possible.  Try feeding one sub amp, default settings or minimal signal modification configuration.  Start with all volume settings minimum and no source material.  Check for movement of the drivers.  Increase the volume in steps, each time check for cone movement.  If you note cone movement increase with increased volume, probably have an EMI or RFI noise issue.

If there is no cone movement as you increase volume, start over with musical content.  Increase volume and check for clipping.  If clipping present likely a faulty amp, or problem with the input signal, or noise being picked up along the signal chain.  If all good repeat with the other amp.  If all good there, connect both amps and repeat.  If both amps do not clip add one item back in the signal chain.  Test again.  The idea is to isolate, hopefully, a single item causing the problem.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #53 on: 7 Oct 2022, 01:13 am »
Thanks, this weekend I will run some measurements, time permitting.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #54 on: 8 Oct 2022, 12:53 am »
MiniDSP's are not recommended for systems at this level.

So these amps/Speakers are not a good fit for anyone intending to use bass management in their rigs ??

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #55 on: 8 Oct 2022, 01:05 am »
Danny, the problem is the amp runs out of steam with bass management. This is not a desirable thing for many people that want to implement it. Lets face it, it is the future and progression of audio like it or don't its improving by leaps and bounds yearly. I have a "black" amp and hear nothing but harmony in the system, clearly not as advanced as yours nor do I have the luxury of having a large dedicated listening room that even goes beyond your black curtain bordering your listening space. You have all the latitude to make things perfect. So perhaps this would be something to mention in the kit literature. Sorry.

NoahH

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #56 on: 8 Oct 2022, 01:22 am »
Danny, the problem is the amp runs out of steam with bass management. This is not a desirable thing for many people that want to implement it. Lets face it, it is the future and progression of audio like it or don't its improving by leaps and bounds yearly. I have a "black" amp and hear nothing but harmony in the system, clearly not as advanced as yours nor do I have the luxury of having a large dedicated listening room that even goes beyond your black curtain bordering your listening space. You have all the latitude to make things perfect. So perhaps this would be something to mention in the kit literature. Sorry.

(Edited) your photos look like the no-rez is not installed - did you put that in?

This is also probably basic, but... You did wire these out of phase since they are opposing directions, right?

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #57 on: 8 Oct 2022, 03:41 am »
Danny, the problem is the amp runs out of steam with bass management. This is not a desirable thing for many people that want to implement it. Lets face it, it is the future and progression of audio like it or don't its improving by leaps and bounds yearly. I have a "black" amp and hear nothing but harmony in the system, clearly not as advanced as yours nor do I have the luxury of having a large dedicated listening room that even goes beyond your black curtain bordering your listening space. You have all the latitude to make things perfect. So perhaps this would be something to mention in the kit literature. Sorry.

If the amp runs out of steam with bass management does it not run out of steam without bass management?  What are you expecting to gain with bass management?  Even open baffle subs can need some tweaking regarding location to eliminate room modes.  I had to experiment with locations of 3 units to get the best overall result.  Bass management can't fix everything.   Still, assuming everything is correctly wired and constructed, no faulty components, no noise infiltration, the clipping does not make sense.  If you take bass management out of the signal path and there is no clipping, sounds like there is the problem.  I wish you all the best in your journey. 

Bingenito

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #58 on: 8 Oct 2022, 10:29 am »
Quote
If the amp runs out of steam with bass management does it not run out of steam without bass management?  What are you expecting to gain with bass management?

I am not the original poster here however DSP/ Room EQ is often misused in that you should never boost and only cut or attenuate peaks. We often read threads of people using DIRAC and they let it auto calibrate and the result is that is tries to boost the bottom end of the freq range and the end user hits Xmax and or clips amps.

Positioning of these subs seems limited by the fact it is built into furniture and very nice job with that.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #59 on: 8 Oct 2022, 05:23 pm »
I don't think no-rez is going to do a thing at the 40hz-20hz region. I know a lot of people use it, and for good reason if you're going with say a 120hz crossover point.

I love the way the system sounds corrected, not a huge fan with my limited placement and without Dirac Live 3 engaged. But yes you are correct they will play about three decibels louder with Dirac defeated, problem is the synergy of the speakers mating properly in the phase domain and also in the magnitude domain sounds 100% better with Dirac engaged. Just look at the frequency response I posted, if you don't think that sounds good... It sounds amazing! Not bragging on my gear, just pointing out the efficacy of bass management done correctly works extremely well.

I'm thinking of ways to still utilize the servo section of the amp but not the amp itself at some point and get the NAD M22 to drive the subs. It would not even be fair to compare the two amps. Then I would have all the headroom I would need. Rythmik should simply make a class D amp with a solid switching power supply but I realize that is expensive to make one that will last. Anyway, that's my two cents on the subject. Simply not a audiophile match up in my world.