[Wayne1]

A very good introduction to the SqueezeBox and comments about the sound of the unit was written by AC's own Scott F. in EnjoyTheMusic December 2005.

SqueezeBox Review

As Scott alludes to in his post above, the DAC chip used in the SB3  and in the DUET is very good. Where the units may be lacking is in the analog output section and the power supply distribution.

These failings were supposed to be addressed by the Transporter, for quite a bit more money.

Some people were still not happy with the sound of the Transporter, feeling it was very sterile sounding. Dan Wright of Modwright offers a mod where he replaces the op-amp based analog section with a custom designed tube output section with tube rectification.

Other folks are very happy using the SB3 or DUET with an external DAC which would have bigger power supplies and an analog section that can't physically fit inside the Logitech units.

[jsalk]

Sorry Jim, I definitely don't agree that there "should be" no difference and that the only thing that determines the sound is the DAC.  Based on measurements and listening, one can clearly see differences between various transports feeding an external DAC.

I have run controlled tests in a high resolution system in which we level matched a stock Duet, Modwright Transporter, and Bolder Cable SB all feeding a digital signal to a Theta Gen VIII 2 preamp/dac.  While I am not going to say they sounded wildly different, the three of us could easily identify that each produced a different sonic signature when using the exact same "bits" coming from the SlimCenter server.

The sound that a DAC produces depends on a lot more than simply the bits on the original recording.  While one can debate the value and sonic attributes of cables and cords, the sonic qualities and characteristics of a transport are a lot more grounded in science and measurement.

George

Interesting.  Far be it from me to have all the answers.  But I have to say it doesn't make sense to me unless the SB, Duet or Transporter are not delivering an accurate bitstream.  I would think that the bitstream from any of these units should be the exact same stream of 1's and 0's as the original CD.  So there should be no difference in sound quality since the same outboard DAC is doing all the decoding (creating an analog signal from the bitstream). 

What kind of measurements were you doing? 

What factors influence the sound produced by a DAC (provided all units are driving the same DAC) other than the bitstream (provided it is accurate)?

At a recent RMAF, I talked at length with a gentleman who swore his power supply would dramatically improve the performance of my SB.  That didn't make any sense to me since I was using the digital output.  But, I never like to rule anything out, so we tried it.  There may have been a difference, but I certainly couldn't hear it.

I would love a theoretical explanation of what would be responsible for any differences in sound quality (bitstream errors, jitter, etc.) in a case where a given DAC is fed by several different digital sources.  And I would like to do a double blind test to see if I (or others) could accurately ascertain those differences.  I have my doubts, but always like to keep an open mind.

- Jim

[mchuckp]

floresjc,
Without a nice AVA DAC, the Airport Express is not going to work for you.
As far as formats, Logitech's Web site lists both FLAC and Apple Lossless as supported by the Squeezebox.

Kevin

not sure if you meant to specifically say that you need an AVA DAC or not, but there are other good DACs on the market.

floresjc,

if cost is a concern, why not get the SB and use it as is and then try a mod or external DAC later when you can afford it.

[mathgeek97]

floresjc,
Without a nice AVA DAC, the Airport Express is not going to work for you.
As far as formats, Logitech's Web site lists both FLAC and Apple Lossless as supported by the Squeezebox.

Kevin

not sure if you meant to specifically say that you need an AVA DAC or not, but there are other good DACs on the market.

Well, floresjc mentioned an Insight amp, so I naturally thought of AVA for a DAC for him.

[mchuckp]

I use an Apple TV primarily for the great user interface which can be displayed on your wide screen.  You can also use your iphone/itouch as a very nice remote.  Combined with Apple lossless it's a great server.  You can do just about anything on the wide screen you can do with itunes on your mac/pc, such as renting/downloading HD and SD video, youtube  , flickr, etc. 

There is some misconception that all your content must be stored on the atv -- this is one option -- but you can also stream content from anything itunes can access such as your pc hard drive or NAS.  I don't have a MAC.

The disadvantage of the apple express is the lack of a user interface unless you are in front of itunes.

As others have said, avoid the apple analog output and connect optical to your own receiver or dac if you have one.   I'm very satisfied with this on my Songtowers.

I just wanted to chime in and say that I also use an appleTV. I opted for the 160g version as I didn't want to leave my computer on if I didn't want to. I have a friend who has the 40g and streams everything. For me, I can take my ATV anywhere and use it without a network connection. If I don't want to leave my TV on for track selection, I use my iPod or iPhone as a remote. I save everything as AppleLossless in a separate library as my compressed stuff for my iPod.

Besides music, I have concerts and music videos saved as well along with seasons of TV shows. I'm down to about 20g left and will have to go with one of two options. Either stream some stuff or hack the USB drive to allow external storage. (this Jack is supposed to be for service only but a simple hack allows you to hook up an external HDD).

Btw, I run my ATV into a Channel Islands DAC with external power supply and love the results.

[Nuance]

floresjc,

if cost is a concern, why not get the SB and use it as is and then try a mod or external DAC later when you can afford it.

Bingo.  That's what I am doing, and so far the quality of the SB is on par with my Denon CDP.  I have the Duet and am running it using the analogs (which many people say is poor on the SB, but it sounds as good as the Denon in analog mode and not much different than running the SB using the optical out). 

For what it's worth, I don't believe the power supply will make a noticeable difference in sound quality either.  I think many are scams to get you to spend money, but YMMV.  In my opinion, running the SB through a DAC (such as one from AVA) would be a much better investment. 

[Big Red Machine]

The stock SB is way easier to listen to than the stock TP both outputting through analog to a preamp.  The TP made my ears twinge and my eyes squint.  The SB is easy on the ears while being a tad light on the detail retrieval.  I'm still awaiting my Audio Sector to see what that does for me.  Also should be getting my Bella preamp back tomorrow as well with a new top plate installed.  I'll try not to change two things at once.

[zybar]

The stock SB is way easier to listen to than the stock TP both outputting through analog to a preamp.  The TP made my ears twinge and my eyes squint.  The SB is easy on the ears while being a tad light on the detail retrieval.  I'm still awaiting my Audio Sector to see what that does for me.  Also should be getting my Bella preamp back tomorrow as well with a new top plate installed.  I'll try not to change two things at once.

Interesting observations Pete...while the Modwright TP is much more refined in every way over the stock TP, the stock unit never made my ears twinge or eyes squint.     That's a pretty extreme response to something that has received universally good praise.  But you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Jim, I have asked a friend who is much more technical than myself to respond to your questions.  If he doesn't I will give it a crack.  BTW, not last year, but the year before, there were quite a few people in the David Ellis room who got to hear SB power supplies from Wayne at Bolder Cable and Hugh at AKSA Audio and all agreed that they heard improvements over the stock PS. 

George

[oneinthepipe]

If you are going to a DAC, there should be absolutely no difference.  The bitstream either puts out should be EXACTLY the same as the original CD.  In this case, the DAC determines the sound quality.

There is a difference in the sound between a CD track played in my Marantz CD5001 (as a transport) and the corresponding AIFF file played in iTunes on my iMac, both played through the same DAC, using an Inday Digital Audio Switcher to select the digital source.  I can't say which is more accurate, but the files from the iMac seem more detailed and also brighter (overly), but my ear isn't that sophisticated, and the additional detail that I think that I perceive might just be brightness.

I was hoping that the SB or some other (not terribly expensive) component would provide better sound than my CDP or my computer.

[zybar]

If you are going to a DAC, there should be absolutely no difference.  The bitstream either puts out should be EXACTLY the same as the original CD.  In this case, the DAC determines the sound quality.

There is a difference in the sound between a CD track played in my Marantz CD5001 (as a transport) and the corresponding AIFF file played in iTunes on my iMac, both played through the same DAC, using an Inday Digital Audio Switcher to select the digital source.  I can't say which is more accurate, but the files from the iMac seem more detailed and also brighter (overly).

I was hoping that the SB or some other (not terribly expensive) component would provide better sound than my CDP or my computer.

Henry,

When you come over, we can do a test with my SB I use in the HT system.  I have the stock wall wart and an elpac PS modified by Wayne at Bolder Cable.  We can send the digital out of the SB into the Modwright TP and listen to it with both ways.  Putting aside which is preferred, I am confident you will hear a difference.

George

[baumer]

For what it's worth, I don't believe the power supply will make a noticeable difference in sound quality either, especially the ones from Bolder Cable.  I think it's a scam to get you to spend money, but YMMV.  In my opinion, running the SB through a DAC (such as one from AVA) would be a much better investment.
[/quote]

Well, FWIW, I've had my Duet for little over a year now. I was one of the first to purchase a linear power supply for it when Wayne at Bolder made them available specifically for the Duet. After having it in my system for about a month, I noticed a dramatic increase in how the bass sounded. The bass was more "full" overall, but the biggest difference was how the bass tightened right up. It was a definite improvement. There was also in improvement in how quiet the background was compared to the standard power supply.

I eventually purchased an AVA Insight DAC. With the DAC the soundstage was broader, giving the instruments a more "3-D" like effect. I did have the op-amps upgraded just a few months ago and couldn't hear a difference between the new ones and the old ones.

I eventually sold the DAC and will be getting my Duet modded by Wayne. Having prior experience with Bolder products and doing a little research on Wayne's mods makes me comfortable that my Duet should give me the sound I'm looking for, above and beyond what I experienced with my external DAC.

I just wanted to shine a little light on the subject from someone who has first-hand experience at both ends, instead of spewing forth my opinion without any solid ground to stand on.

"A scam to get you to spend money", c'mon, you're better than that.

Doug

[zybar]

For what it's worth, I don't believe the power supply will make a noticeable difference in sound quality either, especially the ones from Bolder Cable.  I think it's a scam to get you to spend money, but YMMV.  In my opinion, running the SB through a DAC (such as one from AVA) would be a much better investment.

Nuance,

You don't have to buy Wayne's PS mods or even believe that they will improve things, but to call what Wayne does a "scam to get you to spend money" is crossing a line and shows you in a poor light.  Wayne is every bit the gentleman that Jim is and I can say that in all my years of dealing with Wayne he has never scammed me or tried to take my money.  He has shown me the same exact honesty and integrity that Jim does.

Based on all of your other posts here on AC, this comment on Wayne seems out of character.  I hope you reconsider the words you used in your post and decide to try and get your point across in a different manner.

George

[oneinthepipe]

I don't know much about power supplies, but after I received my AVA Insight DAC, I tried to use a cheap Philips DVP as a digital source, and merely "powering on" the DVP created deterioration in the sound quality of my system, even when the DVP was plugged in to a completely separate AC outlet (although the dedicated outlets for my system are on the same panel).  I received a number of comments about the problem, and every comment focused on noise related to the DVP's power supply.  The fix was easy; I took the DVP out of the system. 

Now, I want to find a better "sounding" digital source, i.e., transport and/or music server, with a nice, quiet power supply.

[Kris]

Anyone claiming he can hear" dramatic differences" is implying the rest of us are not good listeners, or we are deaf.
The only dramatic differences i can hear is when changing speakers or rooms. Everything else is subtle.

[zybar]

Anyone claiming he can hear" dramatic differences" is implying the rest of us are not good listeners, or we are deaf.
The only dramatic differences i can hear is when changing speakers or rooms. Everything else is subtle.

Since "dramatic differences" can't be quantified and is a subjective phrase, I don't believe it is implying that anybody is deaf or isn't a good listener.

What might be "dramatic" for one person, could be "subtle" or somewhere in between for another.  It's all in the eyes of the listener/writer.

George

[oneinthepipe]

Anyone claiming he can hear" dramatic differences" is implying the rest of us are not good listeners, or we are deaf.
The only dramatic differences i can hear is when changing speakers or rooms. Everything else is subtle.

I think that some systems are more detailed than others.  I can hear differences with different components in my system, although many of the differences aren't dramatic, subjectively.  A significant difference in my system is when I use the two AVA DACs.  The difference between the Insight+ DAC and the Transcendence 8+ DAC is more than subtle.  The difference isn't dramatic, but it is substantial.  My AVA Super 70i is being upgraded to an Ultimate 70, and I expect the difference to be dramatic (even with my middle-aged hearing). 

There is a dramatic difference in a track played on my turntable compared to the same track played on a CD or AIFF file.  I don't have a high-end analog set-up, but the majority of listeners to my system prefer the turntable to a digital source.

[Big Red Machine]

I hooked up a stock Elpac today with some parts from my odds and ends to make the proper connection and it certainly did sound more authoritative than the walwart.  I noticed this and gave it little thought until this discussion.  It could be my Alan Maher units burning in, but it was subtle, but noticeable.  Twilight Zone actually.

[ted_b]

Anyone claiming he can hear" dramatic differences" is implying the rest of us are not good listeners, or we are deaf.
The only dramatic differences i can hear is when changing speakers or rooms. Everything else is subtle.

No, those are not the implications..  Likely that the system is not as resolving.  I wish some changes (like changing power cords, for goodness sake) weren't dramatic...but they are.  Dan's mods are dramatic.  Wayne's mods are dramatic.  A new DAC like the Weiss is dramatic.  Room treatments are dramatic.  Some cables are dramatic (in many cases lately, dramatically worse).  not saying that some changes aren't subtle...but had to pipe in and state that many posters here are quite legitimate in their declarations that these recipes in computer audio are still being worked on, and in many cases cause a dramatic change in sonics..sometimes where we least expect it. Keep an open mind...and ear.     We aren't calling you deaf. 

[Big Red Machine]

Interesting observations Pete...while the Modwright TP is much more refined in every way over the stock TP, the stock unit never made my ears twinge or eyes squint.     That's a pretty extreme response to something that has received universally good praise.  But you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

George

That's why I bailed on the TP.  With the cost of upgrading that analog section to get the sting out of it, the SB was a more economical path for me.  The stock TP was very disappointing.  I actually felt guilty for not saying anything to the buyer.

[ted_b]

I agree that the stock SB3 has a more forgiving sound than the stock TP, to my ears.  I didn't like the stock TP at all.  But as a mod platform (or 24/96 digital front end)...no contest.  Dan's work is proof positive.  Dramatic isn't a good enough adjective.