[Mag]

Hi all,

Looking for input from passive Model T owners and of course M. Tanner.

I’m currently shopping for true full range speakers to avoid subwoofer(s) if possible. I have a powerful amplifier (Michi S5 and his P5 companion) that is slightly tilt on the warm side of neutral as solid state goes. The combo really packed a punch.

I heard Model T a couple of times in the Bryston room at the Montreal show in the past and I always been really impressed. I’m just concerned about some comments from a professional reviewer that wrote that the T’s lacked sparkle in the highs and ultimate resolution. He also wrote that the T’s didn’t fare well in near field because of the height of the tweeters. My listening position will be an equilateral triangle of about 9 feet.

From memory, I know I would get great natural mids, dynamics and terrific bass with the T’s. But what about resolution, air and details? Decent, good, great?

For reference, I had until recently the Focal Electra 1038 BE. I really liked their resolution and speed but would like more robust low end.

Thanks for any input about my concerns.

First of all I beg to differ from professional Reviewer, his opinion might be the case if you play the speakers neutral, I don't. I use a mixer and boost the treble +2, Mids +2 and bass between +2, +3. Also I use a Power Conditioner that keeps the voltage steady so there's no lag in the bass.
  I don't have an ideal room and it is somewhat lively, I face the speakers so they reflect off the back wall and I get a beautiful Phantom stereo image coming off my front wall that is 15' wide 8' tall. This is spectacular imaging and I doubt very much that there are other speakers that could pull this off, probably not many, this attests to the accuracy of these speakers.

Now with the bass, going +3 is definitely heavy bass that requires more power from an amp. The Model T passives can play this no problem and you won't need a sub, just that an amp with more watts then my 3B SST2 outputs.

 I tweak my recording, if you think the treble lacks something. I can play you Made In Japan by Deep Purple, Ritchie Blackmore's guitar my god sounds so awesome with an edge to it. So you know these speakers can play it if it's in the recording. And if you don't want that kind of edge then set the tone control back to +1 or neutral.

As for resolution, not detailed to the extent of my Custom Studio headphones, where I can hear reverb. But excellent resolution without hearing these recording artifacts.

[James Tanner]

Hi

Bryston speakers including the Model T are all designed using a very large anechoic chamber in our factory.  The advantage of an anechoic chamber (which by the way not many speaker companies have) is there are NO REFECTIONS in the measurements.  So you get a real picture of what the speakers true polar response is in all directions.

The graph shows the Model T Passive speaker and as you can see there is no drop off in high frequencies in either the ‘listening window’ or the’ sound power’ – which are the 2 most important measurements with any speaker.

If the speaker sounds rolled off it is much more a function of your listening room and listening position than the speaker itself.

Best
James

[Blueshound]

My experience is that the Model T Signatures and the active versions are very linear and neutral sounding. The upper registers are in very good balance with the mids, and about as open as you are likely to come across with dynamic drivers requiring crossovers. The active variants are equally well balanced, but audibly more revealing and dynamic across the speakers' bandwidth.

I started with passive Model T Sigs, and then upgraded to the Bax and the actives. I have a listening space that is larger than average, which does double duty as a theatre. 2 channel music listening is roughly 80% of the use of the room, which is 25' deep by 18' wide with a 10' ceiling. I use moderate aborbing panels spaced along the side walls, one similar panel centered on the rear wall, and one moderately absorptive "cloud" on the ceiling, between the speaker locations and the primary listening seat. The panels are only 1" thick so that they primarily affect only first reflections at higher frequencies. I've intentionally avoided absorption at lower frequencies, such that the room remains reasonably "live". The front plane of the speakers is roughly 40" from the rear wall. The preferred seating position is roughly 12' from the speakers, with the front L & R speakers roughly 10" apart.

The speakers do not perceptually roll off higher frequencies, but I can see how a room with excessive damping, particular if it absorbs down into the upper mids, could create such an impression. Listening to better mixed recordings, I hear a great balance between tonality, dynamics, range even into relatively low frequencies, and soundstage.

The off axis "sound power" really seems to contribute to the adaptability of the speakers in different positions and rooms. I do find that having the speakers well away from the wall behind really opens things up. The other consideration is toe in. IMO, too much toe in makes for irregularities in perceived depth across the width of the "stage", and pushes vocals and mid-heavy instruments back. Many users toe their speakers in too much, depending on their listening space, of course. Less toe in will often create the impression of sounds both in front of and behind the plane of the speakers.

YMMV, but try adjusting toe in.

Brian

[whydontumarryit]

Hi all,

Looking for input from passive Model T owners and of course M. Tanner.

I’m currently shopping for true full range speakers to avoid subwoofer(s) if possible. I have a powerful amplifier (Michi S5 and his P5 companion) that is slightly tilt on the warm side of neutral as solid state goes. The combo really packed a punch.

I heard Model T a couple of times in the Bryston room at the Montreal show in the past and I always been really impressed. I’m just concerned about some comments from a professional reviewer that wrote that the T’s lacked sparkle in the highs and ultimate resolution. He also wrote that the T’s didn’t fare well in near field because of the height of the tweeters. My listening position will be an equilateral triangle of about 9 feet.

From memory, I know I would get great natural mids, dynamics and terrific bass with the T’s. But what about resolution, air and details? Decent, good, great?

For reference, I had until recently the Focal Electra 1038 BE. I really liked their resolution and speed but would like more robust low end.

Thanks for any input about my concerns.

Get the Middle T. The right height, bass to 25hz and resolution, air and detail exactly as what you heard from the personal experience listening and not what some 'professional reviewer' claims.
Although, to be honest, having listened to the Middle T for quite some time there is this voice in my head that keeps saying beryllium tweeter, beryllium tweeter?
Good luck.

[veloceleste]

Get the Middle T. The right height, bass to 25hz and resolution, air and detail exactly as what you heard from the personal experience listening and not what some 'professional reviewer' claims.
Although, to be honest, having listened to the Middle T for quite some time there is this voice in my head that keeps saying beryllium tweeter, beryllium tweeter?
Good luck.

I directly compared in my system and with other amplification, the latest version of Reference 3 DeCapo BE with my Mini T’s and the aspect I liked least about the DeCapo was the beryllium tweeter. I found it overly bright and a bit harsh. The DeCapo did the spooky imaging/soundstage thing very well but also did not have the bass weight and punch or overall tonal balance of the Mini T.

[Stovebolter]

Get the Middle T. The right height, bass to 25hz and resolution, air and detail exactly as what you heard from the personal experience listening and not what some 'professional reviewer' claims.
Although, to be honest, having listened to the Middle T for quite some time there is this voice in my head that keeps saying beryllium tweeter, beryllium tweeter?
Good luck.

I can only speak from my own experience, but the Middle T's, a 4B3, and a BR-20 are more than enough to keep me happy.  I'm happy with the tweeters I've got.

[James Tanner]

[Testsystems]

Hi James,

Happy New Year.   Can you please provide an update on the “Coming Soon” new Bryston speaker models listed on your website.  It’s been quite a while since you mentioned they were in development. 

Always interested in new speaker options. 

Tx Drew

[James Tanner]

Hi Drew - Happy N.Y. to you as well.

It looks like March as we are still playing with different driver layouts and crossover placement.

best
james

[whydontumarryit]

Hi Drew - Happy N.Y. to you as well.

It looks like March as we are still playing with different driver layouts and crossover placement.

best
james

I asked the same question a few months back. Now I wonder if the current series is lacking somehow or technology (bah) has made them so passé that a new improved version is necessary or if it is sales driven.

If the new breed includes something like a 3/4 way line source (array) with 6.5” woofers (maybe purifi style) to duplicate, in a single, small footprint enclosure, that t-rex type system I have seen here, great.

Or a tiny, 2 way implemention of the mini-t that attaches to the wall optimized for use in a typical room where the location based on individual room dimensions is dictated by Bryston's very intricate (and correct) measurements for instruction on the user's best placement. This way we can finally forget about guessing at the right plosition for the speakers and do away with stands and spikes and who knows what else, let the dsp deal with the needed subwoofer output corrections below that shroeder frequency and taking the room variables out of the equation as much as possible that would be interesting.
If the laws of acoustics have somehow changed from a 100 yrs. ago I would be interested in that too.

[whydontumarryit]

In terms of accuracy it must be right up there, it's just that without some room treatment and a favorable speaker and listening positon and better than average electronics and the highest of the hi-rez recordings ( and the correct humidity level in my room:) ) it just doesn't cut it as being music listener friendly. I admit that this is primarily source material specific for the most part. I just wonder if that's my problem or Bryston's since people are under the impression that speakers with a flat FR are neutral and not being 'voiced' by the manufacturer. Your 'voicing' for the high frequencies just doesn't suit my situation being an average listener with my average sources of listening material.

It's all about compromises for me and I guess your speakers are just too accurate.

[James Tanner]

Well accuracy is our mantra and I will not apologize for that.

james

[drummermitchell]

Voiced to what room,
Tiled wash room,gymnasium,living room,bedroom,outdoors,anchoic chamber.
IMPOSSIBLE EVERY ROOM Is DIFFERENT,just like people’s opinions.
Neutral works for me and yes my room is treated and yes I have Bryston speakers A1s ect ect.

[James Tanner]

Come on - normal rooms - I do not know anyone that has his audio system in a washroom or an anechoic chamber 

Anechoic chambers are critical in designing a loudspeakers as it allows you to see what is happening on and off axis without reflection issues impeding the measurement.

Folks there has been decades of research into how speakers react in different rooms with different polar responses.

Please read my latest Newsletter for much more detail.

best
james

[Stefan_DR3]

In terms of accuracy it must be right up there, it's just that without some room treatment and a favorable speaker and listening positon and better than average electronics and the highest of the hi-rez recordings ( and the correct humidity level in my room:) ) it just doesn't cut it as being music listener friendly. I admit that this is primarily source material specific for the most part. I just wonder if that's my problem or Bryston's since people are under the impression that speakers with a flat FR are neutral and not being 'voiced' by the manufacturer. Your 'voicing' for the high frequencies just doesn't suit my situation being an average listener with my average sources of listening material.

It's all about compromises for me and I guess your speakers are just too accurate.

You're basing that on a review?

I would say you have been misinformed.  The speakers are more "friendly" compared to some I've heard them next to in the same room at the store (B&W 800 series) and next to my Thiels in my own room.  If anything they are a bit less resolving.

EDIT: nevermind, I see now you say you own the speakers but somehow don't know what to make of them. Suggest you get those tweeters checked out. There is nothing unusual about these speakers.

[Stefan_DR3]

Come on - normal rooms - I do not know anyone that has his audio system in a washroom or an anechoic chamber 

James, I think drummermitchell was referring to the other poster who mentioned "voicing".

[James Tanner]

Hi - If so my apology.

Voicing is not something Bryston has ever endorsed - either in amplifiers or speakers. 
We feel, you have to move towards neutrality as best you can based on the current knowledge and the research available.

best
james

[whydontumarryit]

Voiced to what room,
Tiled wash room,gymnasium,living room,bedroom,outdoors,anchoic chamber.
IMPOSSIBLE EVERY ROOM Is DIFFERENT,just like people’s opinions.
Neutral works for me and yes my room is treated and yes I have Bryston speakers A1s ect ect.

I wasn't smart enough to choose the A1's.

The A1s (and A2s) are probably great speakers since the design follows the original Model T concept and is how things should be done when considering a less expensive version that sacrifices practically nothing in comparison other than the LF response and useability vs room size (this is obviously a crock that I'm trying to foist on the impressionable) when there is no residential listening room that needs the Model T over the A1.
If the line array design is why it sounds great then obviously the mini a,mini t and middle t bear no resemblance to it compared to the A1/A2.
As an example, it was thought that the middle/mini t could be sold as a t-rex system to simulate a quasi line array. If this served some purpose other than to further accentuate their design faults I don't know what it could be. Also, the mirror imaged driver configuration isn't like the Model T and they can't both be right. If you wanted to 'experiment', why not put two TC1 centers on end for half the price and not have to worry about an avalanche.

This may be just my impression, I have noticed over the years that many owners have very positive opinions of Bryston speakers (mini and middle t only?) on the one hand then for some reason say they have decided to sell them and never offer any explanation for doing so.

Maybe room interaction and the design of the mini a/t, middle t is more of a 'thing' that's easily overcome with the Model T, A1/A2 design. As it is my middle t's and me suit a 10 ft. triangle in a 22 x13 ft. room and nowhere else and I have tried 14 different setup positions over the months. If the claim is that the tonality of the speakers never changes with respect to room position, that's true, as far as coherence related to phase or time anomalies (which don't exist with nearfield listening) the room dominates in a bad way with the result being a sweet spot only inches wide rather than the couch wide locked on imaging claimed by the reviewers and many here on the forum. These speakers have an uncanny ability to be completely incoherent with little effort  on my part.
Maybe there is a defect with my speakers that has been there since I got them. Not doing something about it says more about my foolish adherence to reputation making me think that it must be something else other than my speakers causing the problem. That is, even if it is a defect and replacing the tweeters (or whatever) solved the problem I would be no less disappointed if it did not make a difference. At this level of performance expectation if there was a defect I would have them repaired, sell them immediately and never go near the company again.
That's just speculation, measurements made show no obvious problems, both speakers measure the same and reasonably uniform at the LP. BTW, when you do a nearfield measurement (1” at just below tweeter on axis) as you would see for a typical online review it's amazing how flat the measurement is and still not account for what I hear. They are exactly as designed, I fear.

A member with an AC1 center channel recently described a problem with poor off axis sound, that echoes what I have been hearing with my middle t's, which was solved by replacing both tweeters. I hope there is nothing generic about his problem. It could be a case of saving $90 to upgrade his tweeters and the ordeal was nothing more than a hoax. (He removed the screens on the tweeters and thought that it may have sounded better when his complaint was that his measurements show a severe rolloff after 12khz. He also decided to add some stuffing to the enclosure 'for good measure' and heard a difference).

Another member made the cogent observation that this upgrade:
“Sent my 4BST in today for the Tier 1 upgrade. Can't wait to see how she looks and sounds when I get her back.” ( how could it not be a great idea…)
Will have this result:
“The difference will be shocking in the best possible way.” (when someone else thinks the same way I do!)

This is just to emphasize the crazy shit hyperbole that people post to forums and that I'm not one of them. My personal descriptions are straight-ahead listening not confirmation bias or agenda driven.

So, is the Middle-T speaker lame compared to the Bryston A1? They both can't be right, right? For that matter, is the Mini A and a decent pair of subs better than the Middle-T? Stranger things have happened.

[James Tanner]

I think I will pass on this whydontyoumarryit - its not going anywhere and you are entitled to your opinion
I agree though that there is more marketing than science in the audio business and thats a problem.

james

[whydontumarryit]

I think I will pass on this whydontyoumarryit - its not going anywhere and you are entitled to your opinion
I agree though that there is more marketing than science in the audio business and thats a problem.

james

Not getting involved is as sensible as it gets because there is no right answer. Anyway, I put the Middle Ts on the long wall. A lot less to complain about, still not all they were cracked up to be. Live and learn, eh.