14B SST Swedish Magazine Review

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Ing. Oehman

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #40 on: 13 Aug 2007, 01:57 pm »
Hello James!

I do not think that we have neither meet nor spoken, but I just want to say two things:

1. I was very impressed by the positive response from Bryston (Chris) during the test we
did in Sweden! (And even more impressed by the final performance of the amplifier.)

2. I'm equally impressed now, by your dialogue with Bryston owners on the internet, trying
to find sollutions to their whishes!


Just imagine a world where ALL HiFi-manufacurers were as conserned with the owners
questions. That would really be something... :P


Best regards, Ingvar

amdan

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #41 on: 13 Aug 2007, 10:46 pm »
Hello James!

I do not think that we have neither meet nor spoken, but I just want to say two things:

1. I was very impressed by the positive response from Bryston (Chris) during the test we
did in Sweden! (And even more impressed by the final performance of the amplifier.)

2. I'm equally impressed now, by your dialogue with Bryston owners on the internet, trying
to find sollutions to their whishes!


Just imagine a world where ALL HiFi-manufacurers were as conserned with the owners
questions. That would really be something... :P


Best regards, Ingvar


I have never come across any company (in any field) with better customer service and integrity than Bryston. I wish there were more companies like Bryston out there.

I am sure that Bryston's approach generates a lot of customer loyalty.

James Tanner

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #42 on: 14 Aug 2007, 12:19 pm »
Hello James!

I do not think that we have neither meet nor spoken, but I just want to say two things:

1. I was very impressed by the positive response from Bryston (Chris) during the test we
did in Sweden! (And even more impressed by the final performance of the amplifier.)

2. I'm equally impressed now, by your dialogue with Bryston owners on the internet, trying
to find sollutions to their whishes!


Just imagine a world where ALL HiFi-manufacurers were as conserned with the owners
questions. That would really be something... :P


Best regards, Ingvar


I have never come across any company (in any field) with better customer service and integrity than Bryston. I wish there were more companies like Bryston out there.

I am sure that Bryston's approach generates a lot of customer loyalty.



Thanks for the kind comments guys but without customers like you out there I wouldn't have a job.

james


vegasdave

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #43 on: 15 Aug 2007, 02:34 am »
That's what I like to hear. I think I speak for most (if not all) Bryston customers, true?

lonewolfny42

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #44 on: 15 Aug 2007, 05:40 am »
Hello Ingvar....I have a question...

Quote
Thirdly:
To sum it all up - the SST 14B (serial number later than 000 505) is (in my opinion, from my experience) the best
amplifier I've ever seen and heard! A true reference for what "transparent amplifier performance" is.
Before hearing the SST 14B , what then would you say was the "best amplifier I've ever seen and heard" ? Just as a point of reference....thanks ! :thumb:

                                   Chris

amdan

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #45 on: 15 Aug 2007, 07:45 am »
Hello Ingvar....I have a question...

Quote
Thirdly:
To sum it all up - the SST 14B (serial number later than 000 505) is (in my opinion, from my experience) the best
amplifier I've ever seen and heard! A true reference for what "transparent amplifier performance" is.
Before hearing the SST 14B , what then would you say was the "best amplifier I've ever seen and heard" ? Just as a point of reference....thanks ! :thumb:

                                   Chris

Hi Ingvar,

I too would be very interested in your answer to this.

Frihed91

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #46 on: 15 Aug 2007, 12:40 pm »
Are swedish reviewers any different than north american reviewers?  It's just one opinion, I wouldn't give it any more weight than a danish or american or french review. 

theonlyone

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #47 on: 15 Aug 2007, 01:38 pm »
Are swedish reviewers any different than north american reviewers?  It's just one opinion, I wouldn't give it any more weight than a danish or american or french review. 

No, sweedish reviewers in general are the same as anyone else, they are impressed of expensive gear, cables of all sorts and of fake and mumbo-jumbo in the audio industry, but when it comes to I. Oehman its another story. He is not easy to please at all, seen from my point of view. I have watched him over a period of, say 20 years or more working for the sweedish magazin (no pay!!). Bryston is one of these rare hifi-components that was standing out of the ordinary. He is a speaker- builder too, you know, watch Stereophile August issue. His goal when is comes to reprodused sound is as near the original as possible, there is no trace of designer-sound in his struggle for better reproduced music in peoples home. Only neutral products will be approowed by him.
« Last Edit: 15 Aug 2007, 03:46 pm by theonlyone »

Raimo

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #48 on: 15 Aug 2007, 03:22 pm »
Are swedish reviewers any different than north american reviewers?  It's just one opinion, I wouldn't give it any more weight than a danish or american or french review. 

No, sweedish reviewers in general are the same as anyone else, they are impressed of expensive gear, cables of all sorts and of fake and mumbo-jumbo in the audio industry, but when it comes to I. Oehman its another story. He is not easy to please at all, seen from my point of view. I have watched him over a period of, say 20 years or more working for the sweedish magazin (no pay!!). Bryston is one of these rare hifi-components that was standing out of the ordinary. He is a speaker- builder too, you know, watch Stereophile August issue. His goal when is comes to reprodused sound is as near the original as possible, there is no trace of designer-sound is his struggle for better reproduced music in peoples home. Only neutral products will be approowed by him.
Very true indeed,Ingvar is an expert in finding flaws in even the most expensive high end gear,and dont hesitate to say so,be it Mark Levinson,krell or what ever.So if he says that something is very good then i am the first one to belive him.
I have read his articles for over 10 years and he is the only rewiever i have full confidence in,once i walked in to hifi store and said i want to by amplifier X,the guy in the store said fine shall we listen to it? No need i said, oh you have alrady done that he said. I said no,he looked very surprised.I have owned this amp for 3 years now,i still think it sounds very good indeed.Now i have orderd the 4BSST and have never heard one,if somone else than Ingvar would have recommended it,i would hazitate to order such a expensive amp unheard.
Raimo.

Ing. Oehman

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #49 on: 15 Aug 2007, 04:35 pm »
Hello Ingvar....I have a question...

Quote
Thirdly:
To sum it all up - the SST 14B (serial number later than 000 505) is (in my opinion, from my experience) the best
amplifier I've ever seen and heard! A true reference for what "transparent amplifier performance" is.
Before hearing the SST 14B , what then would you say was the "best amplifier I've ever seen and heard" ? Just as a point of reference....thanks ! :thumb:

                                   Chris

Hi Ingvar,

I too would be very interested in your answer to this.

Well, I've heard many hundreds of amplifiers over the years, and my answer might surprise many, at least anyone who believes that performance is allways proportional to the prize of the amp...

Before I say anything else, I'd like to point out that I put no subjective preference into the answer to your question - there are a lot of amplifiers (some of them very expensive) offering quite a substantial amount of coloration out there. Some of them sounds awful, while others might sound VERY nice - subjectively! At least on "not to complicated" programme material.

The latter may be a superb choice for some, but not for me. I'm not driven by a "wish for a maximized experience", but rather by my curiosity for the recordings/the music. So, my choice is always the transparent amplifier (or transparent any other part of the audio chain) and not the one with the most "beautiful sound".

I do not judge however, and think that any choice that makes the person doing it, happy - is a good choice! :P

I'm saying all this because I think it is good to be clear over the perspective from which my opinion is formed.

One more thing before I reel off the examples - I believe that even seen from a pure "transparency perspective", there are TWO disparate parameters that must be considered, and kept apart - transparency and power. Sometimes power is not very important, maybe you are using very efficient loudspeakers and/of do not play very loud? For other circumstances transparency is not enough - you need a lot of power to prevent the amplifier to go into clipping. It all depends, so I will mention the output power separately.  


No 2: The second best power amplifier I've ever come across is very expensive (~300 000 SEK). It is the Supreme mono blocks, offering ~250 W per ch. in 8 ohms (much more in lower impedance).

No 3: The third best is the very small Sentec PA9, offering only about 60 W per channel in 8 ohms, and performs best in 8 ohm loads, or at least loads never going below 3 ohms.

No 4: The most bang for the bucks, you'll get with the NAD 208 (was sold for 10 000 SEK in Sweden). It was very impressive in the F/E-listening, and in practical use it delivers >600 W in 8 ohms and >1000 W i 4 ohms. However, since it is working in Class G, it is performing best sound quality wise if it is not forced to switch reels - thus limiting the power output to 280 W in 8 ohms when "super high quality is wanted". To make this amplifier perform close to perfect - it must also be slightly modified, giving it a better extention in the bass.

Also a warning is at place regarding this amplifier: The reliability is not impressive. :cry: The electronic design itself is good but the way they were put together... An extra problem with it is, that some of the ways in which this amplifier breaks, will not make it stop working altogether, but will just make it sound significantly crappier! :? Coming across one "semi broken" NAD 208 will give you the impression that the amplifier sucks - but really, it's just broken NAD208's that sucks. :-) When it works, it is a pearl :P, though an ugly one. Really ugly!

No 5: An amplifier that is a sort of a "little brother" to the Bryston SST 14B behavior vice, is the Rotel 1090. It exhibits higher distorsion, lower output power (450 W at clipping 8 ohms - though it can be bridged, since it is not internally bridged...), uglier packing (in my eyes), not as good bandwidth, but - a lower prize tag. But still it performs very well, and its colorations are (thought the SST 14B has only a fraction of it, from the lab analyses) close to the threshold of hearing.

And here comes the sad part - non of the above mentioned amplifiers are in production any longer.


Besides these mentioned amplifiers, I have been impressed many times by how well many low prized (and very little spoken off) amplifiers perform (both integrated, receivers and home cinema amps!). Even if non have matched the above mentioned amplifiers, a lot of them actually outperforms many "super high end" amps!

The HiFi-world is a strange one...


Best regards, Ingvar
« Last Edit: 16 Aug 2007, 10:21 am by Ing. Oehman »

Ing. Oehman

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #50 on: 15 Aug 2007, 05:08 pm »
Are swedish reviewers any different than north american reviewers?  It's just one
opinion, I wouldn't give it any more weight than a danish or american or french review. 
Of coarse not! Nationality has nothing to do with it.

I'd recommend against using any rule of thumb regarding "who to trust".

I have confidence that every one sets up his or her own criteria, regarding "how
to evaluate information", and then are applying that very criteria with the brain
switched on!

With time, the Darwin principals will haunt anyone not making wise decisions (at
least those who are not sedated by their own suggestive powers) by letting
them... pay for the mistakes they make, and know better till next time! :wink: 


Best regards, Ingvar.

- - - - -

PS. Actually, I'd recommend against using any rules of thumb, for anything! It is
almost always wiser to make the effort to first learn the basics - and then apply
that knowledge by doing insightful thinking. Rules of thumb, for anything (that
you really care about), sucks.

PPS. The idea of "counting heads for opinions" to create an illusion of a "higher
quality" of the opinion "if more people says so" - is (in my opinion) even worse
than most other rule of thumbs. How many people that are sharing an opinion is
most often a very bad measure on the "quality" of the opinion. That is only my
personal opinion, so to quote yourself; It's just one opinion. I'm quite confident
that you can easily just ignore it.  :wink:
« Last Edit: 15 Aug 2007, 11:55 pm by Ing. Oehman »

lonewolfny42

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #51 on: 16 Aug 2007, 02:22 am »
Ingvar....

Thank you for a very informative reply.... :thumb:

Quote
The second best power amplifier I've ever come across is very expensive (~300 000 SEK).
Which would be about $43,000.00 in US dollars...yep...expensive. :o
Price wise....seems the Bryston is a bargain...thanks again....

                           Chris

PS..I did happen to find a few photo's of speakers that..I believe...you designed (Ino)...very nice..... :wink:

Ing. Oehman

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #52 on: 16 Aug 2007, 03:26 pm »
Thank you!

That is a pi60s, the model (there are two versions, the pi60 and the pi60s, s for signatur) that I have
been building since 1978. One of 42 different Ino models actually, even though most of them are very
much technically related to the pi60.

The opinions regarding its visual appearance are divided into (at least) two camps: "Hate" and "Accept". 8)

"Like" and "Love" are not as common opinions# regarding the looks however. :? But - I try to stay positive,
believing that the perception of the... hidden beauty that they posses (yes - really! :wink:) depends very
much on the understanding of the physical reasons fort their shape.*

Or maybe they are just ugly. :oops: :wink:


Best regards, iö

- - - - -

*The same way as it is difficult to judge if say a chair i nice looking if you have no experience with chairs,
and do not even know what it is. Knowing the object and it's object (hope that's correct English) is crucial
for understanding the beauty of it. Yes, I am a functionalist. 8)

#Amongst untrained eyes... :wink:

James Tanner

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #53 on: 16 Aug 2007, 03:37 pm »
Hi All,

OK – I checked with Chris and Engineering and here are the facts on the changes to the 14B SST after and including serial number 506.

The updated 14B SST that was sent to Sweden was modified by reducing the output filter choke on each channel to ½ of the previous value. This change reduces the roll-off of very high frequencies into low impedances.

The frequency response of the 14B SST’s into 4 ohm loads prior to SN 506 was down .25dB at 20KHz.

The frequency response of 14B SST’s into 4 ohm loads after SN 506 is down .1dB at 20KHz.

The frequency response at 10KHz is not affected in either amplifier.

Hope this helps clarify the situation.

james

Phil A

Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #54 on: 16 Aug 2007, 05:34 pm »
Hi All,

OK – I checked with Chris and Engineering and here are the facts on the changes to the 14B SST after and including serial number 506.

The updated 14B SST that was sent to Sweden was modified by reducing the output filter choke on each channel to ½ of the previous value. This change reduces the roll-off of very high frequencies into low impedances.

The frequency response of the 14B SST’s into 4 ohm loads prior to SN 506 was down .25dB at 20KHz.

The frequency response of 14B SST’s into 4 ohm loads after SN 506 is down .1dB at 20KHz.

The frequency response at 10KHz is not affected in either amplifier.

Hope this helps clarify the situation.

james


James, do the changes help the 14BSST handle low impedence loads any better?  I could be wrong but I'd guess not as I'd expect the low frequencies to cause more amp demand vs. high ones.  Did anyone compare it to see what impact it had on sound quality of the amp?  From the info above I'd guess it might do something to speaker like a ribbon with very wide bandwidth well beyond 20k HZ and probably not impact most speakers.  Any clarification would be appreciated.

Raimo

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #55 on: 16 Aug 2007, 07:41 pm »
A tip to you Mr Tanner,you should listen to INO audio or Guru audio speakers,i think you will be surprised.Both are made by Ingvar.
Best regards Raimo.

lonewolfny42

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #56 on: 16 Aug 2007, 07:50 pm »
Thank you!

That is a pi60s, the model (there are two versions, the pi60 and the pi60s, s for signatur) that I have
been building since 1978. One of 42 different Ino models actually, even though most of them are very
much technically related to the pi60.

The opinions regarding its visual appearance are divided into (at least) two camps: "Hate" and "Accept". 8)

"Like" and "Love" are not as common opinions# regarding the looks however. :? But - I try to stay positive,
believing that the perception of the... hidden beauty that they posses (yes - really! :wink:) depends very
much on the understanding of the physical reasons fort their shape.*

Or maybe they are just ugly. :oops: :wink:


Best regards, iö

- - - - -

*The same way as it is difficult to judge if say a chair i nice looking if you have no experience with chairs,
and do not even know what it is. Knowing the object and it's object (hope that's correct English) is crucial
for understanding the beauty of it. Yes, I am a functionalist. 8)

#Amongst untrained eyes... :wink:

Thanks again Ingvar for the info.... :thumb:

Your words about beauty had me thinking about an old saying....."she may be ugly, but she sure can cook".....

Good luck..... :thumb:

                        Chris

James Tanner

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #57 on: 16 Aug 2007, 07:55 pm »
A tip to you Mr Tanner,you should listen to INO audio or Guru audio speakers,i think you will be surprised.Both are made by Ingvar.
Best regards Raimo.

Hi Raimo,

Would be glad to - where can I hear a pair?

james

Raimo

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #58 on: 16 Aug 2007, 08:30 pm »
Hard to say,i dont know if they exist in canada,the best place is of corse at Ingvars showroom but it is a long way from canada to sweden.Best bet would be the Guru speakers,they are more commercial,but not yet launched,they should be so any time soon.Ingvars own brand (ino) is more of a hobby basis product,with very limited amount made.Maby ingvar himself could give a better answer if he drops by here,if not i can contact him for you.Normally he does not sell any of his bigger speakers without an audission in his showroom outside stockholm.But he is a really nice guy so you never know.
Here you can see some of his customers speakers,he alvays lets the buyer decide the vaneer or the color of the speakers,he only makes them on demand.
http://www.faktiskt.se/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=8994&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Raimo

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Re: 14B SST Swedish Magazine Review
« Reply #59 on: 16 Aug 2007, 08:57 pm »
Here are my own speakers INO i28,it is a model designed to be completed with bass modules,i have the infra X6,it is 6 separate closed boxes with 10 inch woofers,they are about 40 litres each & he has a eq control in the active filter to force very deep bass from the small boxes.They go much lower in frequency than a bassreflex speaker.the cost is output,thats why there are 6 boxes to compensate.It sounds very smooth and clean with effortless bass.
More pictures will come.(mine is a do it your self kit.)
http://www.faktiskt.se/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=8994&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0