OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3

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Early B.

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #300 on: 4 Dec 2022, 09:09 pm »
At times, this hobby can seem frustrating -- we've all been there. Danny, along with the fellas on AC, has been exceedingly patient and accommodating in attempting to help you at every step, so that's something to be thankful for. However, badmouthing the product and denigrating Danny isn't going to resolve your issue. Take a deep breath, dude. In spite of everything you've said, we're still on your side. 

kickngas

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #301 on: 4 Dec 2022, 09:21 pm »
Just reading this thread over the past few weeks has been exhausting. To the OP, just sell your subs and buy something else. Open baffle subs are not for you (or me). I have a pair of sealed 12" Rythmik's because I was certain I would not appreciate the acquired taste that is OB subs. Nothing wrong with them, just not my cup of tea.
Multiple posters, including Danny have been extremely patient and helpful here....cut your losses and buy subs that will achieve the sound you are looking for. I'm sure you can recoup your initial investment and will be happy/satisfied.

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #302 on: 4 Dec 2022, 11:57 pm »
I just have a few final comment's on this entire thread. I realize Danny, you are a salesman and have to say whatever you need to in order to keep sales up. I totally get it. These speakers are no different than any speaker EVER made ! these subs are no exception, they have compromise's and limitations. If it weren't for the servo portion of these amps, they would be NOTHING special. I can honestly say I have never heard as much noise from any design in my life regarding A/B amp design, but in Brian's defense they are made to be burred in a sealed dampened enclosure. These amps clip on high level bass peaks "period" with an OB design. You can say whatever you want about that. I have asked the owner/designer himself regarding these amps, they are clipping. Brian has his PhD in Electrical Engineering and has explained to me as I have posted pages ago, the problem is the OB design is taxing the amp clean out of any headroom it would have had in a sealed design, (this is a fact). At high levels due to the front/back wave cancelation effect (Physics) again. I can get 100Db also, but not low, without clipping. Sorry. I was going to spend all sorts of time filming and running tone burst and taking readings at different frequencies so you can all in fact SEE what the shortcomings are with this design, but I've decided we've all probably heard enough.

When can I get the amp back from you Danny ? I'm sure I have to pay of course. And I'll just say, keep up the good work Danny, you sold me ! And I like to think I make pretty good informed purchasing decisions. You have skirted, ignored and flat out disregarded any direct questions or concerns to save your limited performing product. Again they sound great, I will admit, just don't play them loud. If anyone needs me to repost the actual e-mail correspondence with Brian I can. I quoted him verbatim. As far as not have two woofers wired correctly, that is not the case. I would encourage anyone with the LED's to flip their own amps, play some load, low content and take in the light show !!! CLIPPING.

I have held this back for a long time. I received a call from one of your "supposed" friends and colleague warning me to be carful implementing these subs with the M3's. I would NEVER tell on an open forum, who that someone is, but I will say he sure knows what he's talking about. I obviously just disregarded his warning and here I have been.  Anyway, live and learn I guess. Your pride in your product is just a little over the top Danny. This coming from a man that basically makes a living tearing down other engineers that would probably lose there job if they couldn't hit a price point with a design. Must be nice to put everyone on blast with what a crappy job "they" have done. Check your own eye my friend, you may have something in it yourself.

Vince

Really? Everyone here has tried to help you figure out what your problem is, and instead of acknowledging that you have something causing a problem, you still want to blame the quality and performance of the produce?

Helping you resolve your problem is certainly not a sales ploy, nor is helping you in any way constitute me being a salesman.

These open baffle servo subs perform exactly as advertised and that has been confirmed by hundreds of customers including many that are here trying to help you.

I also posted the exact explanation from brian regarding what the red LED lights are telling you, and it is not the amps clipping. Please try reading it again.

Quote
"The two red LED on the power amp board indicates the power rail has temporarily switch to high voltage rail: one LED for each power rail. When it is off, it means the power rail stays at half voltage rail to save power. These two are debugging LEDs to make sure when there is no signal, the power rails should be at half voltage level and when high demanding signal comes in, they can switch to full high voltage so that it has the correct max output. Older class A/B based A370 amps do not use rail switching and therefore does not have these two lights. If I have to guess, I would say the amp will begin to switch to high voltage rail when the output is about half to a third of full max output which is about 6-9db."

Your amp is working fine. I got clean output levels of over 100db plus with ease and no amp clipping. That was with low damping and 14Hz extension. They play flat to 20Hz with no issues here.

As for the servo subs working with your speakers.... :-)  I have had the designer of your speakers here at our facility. We powered the X4 speakers (basically your speakers with the Beyman air motion transformer tweeter), and played them with the open baffle servo subs. The Spacial speakers with the open baffle servo subs were a killer combination, and Clayton commented as such. You can watch a video that we did together right here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL91UyiAAh0&t=3s

I am glad to send your amp back at any time.

If you'd like, you can even send in the woofers and I'll check those too.

I'm glad to continue to help you, but you have to quit blaming the product for whatever problem you are having.

S Clark

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #303 on: 5 Dec 2022, 12:20 am »
dallaire1,
If you will contact me by PM, I'll discuss making an offer for your subs.  It seems clear that moving on from them is your best option. 

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #304 on: 5 Dec 2022, 01:14 am »
At times, this hobby can seem frustrating -- we've all been there. Danny, along with the fellas on AC, has been exceedingly patient and accommodating in attempting to help you at every step, so that's something to be thankful for. However, badmouthing the product and denigrating Danny isn't going to resolve your issue. Take a deep breath, dude. In spite of everything you've said, we're still on your side.

I second Early B.  There has been extreme patience exhibited trying to help with your specific situation that has not been duplicated anywhere else.  If you expect earthquake like bass, going to take something extreme. 

I will ask one last time, what SPL from the Spatial speakers alone do you measure with the NAD at 80% of max volume.  With the power available from the NAD and efficiency of the Spatial's, you should be at the threshold of pain. 

One last thing.  Deflecting responsibility toward Danny, the Sub amp, and open baffle base is not cool.  Blaming being taken in by "salesmanship" while previously claiming extensive audio hobby experience just does not wash.

howburger

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #305 on: 5 Dec 2022, 04:44 am »
Sorry, can't  help myself. Been following this thread from beginning. Mr. Hyde was finally coaxed out. Totally uncool of OP.

EdwardT

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #306 on: 5 Dec 2022, 02:11 pm »
You've got so much time in the build and the nice console and for you it’s just a fail, these will be forever tainted and you should just move on and sell them. Lots of other subs out there, surely you can find a pair that meet your needs.

paolocaminiti

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #307 on: 6 Dec 2022, 12:19 am »
dallaire1,
If you will contact me by PM, I'll discuss making an offer for your subs.  It seems clear that moving on from them is your best option.

Genius. I want to buy too, considering they are "broken" I'm sure we can get a bargain here.

Captainhemo

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #308 on: 6 Dec 2022, 01:48 am »
To the original poster,  sorry  I'm  jumping  into this so late  but some info  you   may find  useful....
I've had  a couple  drivers  that  had the   red/black stickers  reversed on the  driver  coiol  side,  this will cause   some serious issues  if ylou   wire them according  to the   sitickers .    Makee sure   all the   coils are  lableded in the same  orientation   before  you  give up on these...  I was pulkling  my hair out  trying  to fiugre      this out  once  and  finally noticed   that the one  coil  was  labeled opposite  to the rest....   needless to say,  problem  was  solved

jay

wingsounds13

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #309 on: 6 Dec 2022, 04:10 am »
To the original poster,  sorry  I'm  jumping  into this so late  but some info  you   may find  useful....
I've had  a couple  drivers  that  had the   red/black stickers  reversed on the  driver  coiol  side,  this will cause   some serious issues  if ylou   wire them according  to the   sitickers .    Makee sure   all the   coils are  lableded in the same  orientation   before  you  give up on these...  I was pulkling  my hair out  trying  to fiugre      this out  once  and  finally noticed   that the one  coil  was  labeled opposite  to the rest....   needless to say,  problem  was  solved

jay


This would make an incredible amount of sense, but it would require that he got two mismarked drivers and put one in each cabinet.  I would hope that he would have noticed an output difference between the two cabinets. Still, he either has a significant flaw in his subs or he is listening at deafeningly loud levels and the subs really can't keep up. 

One question that I have is he actually getting clipping distortion at his claimed 100dB or is he absolutely convinced that the power rail High Voltage activation LEDs mean that the amp is clipping even though it's really at least 6dB from doing so. 

J.P.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #310 on: 6 Dec 2022, 03:09 pm »


This would make an incredible amount of sense, but it would require that he got two mismarked drivers and put one in each cabinet.  I would hope that he would have noticed an output difference between the two cabinets. Still, he either has a significant flaw in his subs or he is listening at deafeningly loud levels and the subs really can't keep up. 

One question that I have is he actually getting clipping distortion at his claimed 100dB or is he absolutely convinced that the power rail High Voltage activation LEDs mean that the amp is clipping even though it's really at least 6dB from doing so. 

J.P.

I can't understand prior OP comments about running NAD at 80% to get a decent listening volume.  Maybe that is not really what he meant.  Regardless, reading over the NAD user manual there are many setup options that increase the possibility of problems in that area.  Also, recently noticed quite a difference in the quality of Bass in streamed material.  Found a couple examples of streamed version Bass seriously lacking compared to CD version.  Think the OP has tried a variety of known music, but sill have to wonder if there is a source quality issue.  In the end, does not seem like Open Baffle Bass will meet the OP expectations.


77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #311 on: 7 Dec 2022, 05:42 pm »
For a while, remained hopeful the OPs problem could be solved.  Instead of thanking everyone, Danny included, that tried to help the OP decided insults were an appropriate parting gift.  Good luck to the next provider of a product to the OP!

I can honestly say I have never heard as much noise from any design in my life regarding A/B amp design, but in Brian's defense they are made to be burred in a sealed dampened enclosure.

Why should Brian's noisy design be defended?  Sounds like a problem that can and should be corrected.

These amps clip on high level bass peaks "period" with an OB design. You can say whatever you want about that. I have asked the owner/designer himself regarding these amps, they are clipping. Brian has his PhD in Electrical Engineering and has explained to me as I have posted pages ago, the problem is the OB design is taxing the amp clean out of any headroom it would have had in a sealed design, (this is a fact).

You previously stated Brian never called the LEDs indicators of clipping.  Danny explained what Brian told him.  Why do you persist claiming the amps clip?

At high levels due to the front/back wave cancelation effect (Physics) again.

Yes, if the drivers are NOT in phase.

As far as not have two woofers wired correctly, that is not the case. I would encourage anyone with the LED's to flip their own amps, play some load, low content and take in the light show !!! CLIPPING.

Please provide a quote from Brian that the LEDs indicate the amp is clipping.

I have held this back for a long time. I received a call from one of your "supposed" friends and colleague warning me to be carful implementing these subs with the M3's. I would NEVER tell on an open forum, who that someone is, but I will say he sure knows what he's talking about. I obviously just disregarded his warning and here I have been.

You received a warning, you ignored it.  The results did not meet with your expectations.  100% on you, nobody else.

This coming from a man that basically makes a living tearing down other engineers that would probably lose there job if they couldn't hit a price point with a design. Must be nice to put everyone on blast with what a crappy job "they" have done. Check your own eye my friend, you may have something in it yourself.

Poor designs are correctly identified when sent in for evaluation.  Improving or tweaking audio products is nothing new, as you should know having the extensive experience claimed.


dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #312 on: 8 Dec 2022, 10:01 am »
Yes I would like to thank everyone for their help regarding this matter ! I have had no ill intentions with this post. Like Early B. had said it can be frustrating for sure. I have been dealing with this problem since start up. Sorry If I'm at my wits end after dedicating over 100 hours in this build it has been a little bit of a letdown. Here is the emails from Brian and myself.
















Yes please Danny, if you could send the amp back, that would be great.

I am going on vacation for next week. When I get back I will hook up REW, take SPL reading at MLP and want to run the sub through its paces at the MLP. I will do tone burst starting at 15Hz and work my way up to 60Hz in 5hz increments while turning up the main volume and watching the amps at each individual frequency and notate when the amp becomes unstable. (clipping). I am told I can easily get 100Db at the MLP mine is 9 feet away, should not be a problem right ?? we will see. I wish I had the time to do this right now, but I apologize do not have the available time to dedicate on a continual basis right now.

Vince
 

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #313 on: 8 Dec 2022, 10:16 am »
If anyone with the same subs and REW could run the same test to confirm that would be a proving. I am going to video it. Lots of effort, but without visual proof it's all just words.


Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #314 on: 8 Dec 2022, 03:19 pm »
I am not sure why Brian would explain to me exactly what the LED lights are indicating, then tell you they indicate clipping. From the testing I did with my amp and yours I can confirm that the LED lights do not indicate clipping.

Brian is also incorrect regarding how much output a sealed woofer has verses dual OB woofers. I have measured the outputs of both and I'd say that a single sealed servo sub has the output capability that is about 2/3rds of a dual OB woofer in an H frame enclosure.

If you don't get 100db plus output levels flat to 20Hz using low damping and the 14Hz extension then something is not wired properly. You amp will also drive the woofers to those levels without clipping. It just did it in my room.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #315 on: 9 Dec 2022, 01:56 am »
The OP previously indicated that the Sub Amp was noisy.  Question to Danny.  Did the amp returned to you make any type of noise.  Transformer hum?  Any hiss, hum or other noise from the speakers with just the amp turned on?  Would not expect a well designed amp to make any noise when powered on and with no input signal.
If Danny heard no noise from the amp when plugged into normal residential 120V, and the OP does.  There is a problem.  Nobody wants to have a possible problem with their electric service, but it does happen.

Previously there was a question about whether the amps were configured for Open Baffle.  Ignoring markings on packaging which could be wrong, is there a physical feature of the amp that can confirm the configuration?  Yes, they did work as expected for Danny.  Another means of confirmation might be good to identify.

   

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #316 on: 9 Dec 2022, 09:58 am »
I can say I've never heard a peep from any other class A/B amp in my house. Just these. Danny never mentioned anything with regards to 'buzz" I'm assuming that's fine at his place?

I don't have the amp back from Danny.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #317 on: 9 Dec 2022, 09:59 am »
The amp is configured for the OB design, at least the servo boards say OB on them.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #318 on: 9 Dec 2022, 10:15 am »
Danny, when you say the amps did not clip, by what means are you checking for clipping ?

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #319 on: 9 Dec 2022, 03:01 pm »
The amp is configured for the OB design, at least the servo boards say OB on them.

Good, the amps are for Open Baffle. 

The copies of emails posted are too out of focus and small to read.  Regardless, since you shared there must be a response from Brian about the LEDs indicating clipping.  Still, that makes no sense to put a clipping indicator on the circuit side that is 99.9% of the time not visible.  Makes no sense to put an LED indicating anything on the circuit side unless for technician troubleshooting.  Makes not sense to have differing descriptions of the LEDs.  Neither Brian or Danny have reason to be providing misleading or inaccurate information.  The Litmus test would be to look at the output with an O-scope. 

Regarding the amp(s) making noise, good circuit design practice should not result in noise.