The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #40 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 03:24 am »

Some expensive fullrange drivers as Supravox, AER and Feastrex are near perfect peformance, some AER go far beyond 20Khz, but they cost alot.
The Supravox 215-2000 Alnico cost 1200euros /each and AER cost even more and Feastrex gulp...

srb · « **Reply #41 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 03:44 am »

Quote from: FULLRANGEMAN on 23 Jul 2012, 03:24 am

Some expensive fullrange drivers as Supravox, AER and Feastrex are near perfect peformance, some AER go far beyond 20Khz, but they cost alot.
The Supravox 215-2000 Alnico cost 1200euros /each and AER cost even more and Feastrex gulp...

I have only heard the more common lower cost drivers I have mentioned, so I can't comment on any of these higher priced full-range drivers. But after today, the prices don't seem quite as outrageous now that I know a $12K 2" midrange driver exists! (Yes, I know the "magic" is in the midrange).

But I do understand the inherent problems of crossovers and am intrigued by a two-way with a crossover-less midbass driver that magically rolls off perfectly to a tweeter with a very simple high-pass filter, especially like the new Totem Acoustic Element Fire, but those are out of my price range at $6K MSRP. Maybe some used ones down the road!

Steve

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #42 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 03:54 am »

Avantgarde and Anthony Gallo seems used xoverless in the mid to tweeter, but I not sure the details.
http://www.roundsound.com/reference-strada.php

DaveC113 · « **Reply #43 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 04:01 am »

I've heard most of the high end full range drivers and own Omega 5" XRS and a DIY SET amp that cost $1k in parts.

IMO moderately priced single drivers done right (takes tweaking) are a great bang for the buck compared to traditional multi way systems. I have under $2k in my speakers, sub and amp and I am seldom interested in conventional speakers under $10k retail. However, over that price range I have heard many systems I'd gladly trade in my single drivers for.

Single drivers, taken to the maximum of performance, cost as much as a conventional system anyway. A Feastrex 5" field coil speaker in OB with helper woofers is one of the best I've heard, but it uses a custom digital xover and costs six figures.

As far as the comparison of driver cost to retail cost, I'd expect even more of the cost is invested into the cabinets and xovers vs the drivers. Go check out the prices of fine furniture some day and see chairs that cost $1000s... I've seen some very fine woodworking skills worthy of fine furniture prices from many high end speaker manufacturers. And a good xover can cost a lot too...

srb · « **Reply #44 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 04:17 am »

Quote from: FULLRANGEMAN on 23 Jul 2012, 03:54 am

Avantgarde and Anthony Gallo seems used xoverless in the mid to tweeter, but I not sure the details.
http://www.roundsound.com/reference-strada.php

Yes the idea is nothing new and Reference 3A has been using no crossover in the midbass and a single capacitor to the tweeter for years.

But everything I have read about the new Totem Element series and the new midbass drivers that they both developed and manufacture, leads me to believe that these speakers may have taken this concept to a new level.

Steve

planet10 · « **Reply #45 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 04:37 am »

To stay in business selling thru bricks & mortar, driver & cabinet costs should be on the order of 10% of retail. Keep inmind these guys will get OEM pricing, iften on unique versiona of drivers, and they will often hand select from what they buy and toss the rest.

Peak Consult Zoltan - 34,995/$2950 = 8.4%

Joseph Audio Pearl - 1/23,500/$1460 = 6.2%

Wilson Audio Watt Puppy - 1/27,900/$1100 = 3.9% (very pricet cabinet material)

Eggleston Works Andra 2 - 1/19,500/$1870 = 9.6%

Avalon Eidolon Vision - 1/23,950/$1490 = 6.2%

Verity Audio Sarastro - 1/29,995/$2380 = 7.9%

dave

Redefy Audio · « **Reply #46 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 04:54 am »

any mass produced products will have BIG margins.

for example :

1 can of coke in aust is $2.50-3.0, 1 can of coke in philippines is $0.60.

go figure

cheers
henry

JLM · « **Reply #47 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 05:22 am »

Good points:

Drivers, roughly 10% of speaker's MSRP ain't bad;

Cabinets (especially the finishes) is more than the drivers;

Harder to hide material costs with single driver designs (in my $2500/pair single driver speakers nearly 40% of the cost is in drivers, with no marketing/retail cost);

There is no perfect speaker, as I read Floyd Toole et al, it involves 5 to 10 speakers (including up to 4 subs) for proper stereo.

srb · « **Reply #48 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 05:44 am »

Internet Direct manufacturers will always have a huge advantage and can sell a speaker for less than half of what it might cost had it gone through a distributor and retailer.

And some builders just offer a better value than some others.

Looking at a few models of one of the popular speaker brands on this forum, Salk Signature Sound, and using the retail street price of drivers alone (which the other comparisons were also based on, but will obviously be less with wholesale purchasing)

Supercharged Songtower: ~1500/$3500 = 43%
Veracity HT2-TL: ~$1700/$4500 = 38%

As a speaker cabinet gets larger and more complex, and the crossover more complex and/or with larger components, the drivers as a percentage will go down as with the SoundScape series, for example.

Steve

timind · « **Reply #49 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 10:58 am »

Quote from: srb on 23 Jul 2012, 03:44 am

But I do understand the inherent problems of crossovers and am intrigued by a two-way with a crossover-less midbass driver that magically rolls off perfectly to a tweeter with a very simple high-pass filter, especially like the new Totem Acoustic Element Fire, but those are out of my price range at $6K MSRP. Maybe some used ones down the road!

Steve

There ya go.
I understand fullrangeman; he doesn't like the over emphasized high frequency some tweeters provide. I'm another that doesn't enjoy a tipped up frequency response. It doesn't sound natural at all to me and actually makes me uncomfortable.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #50 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 12:57 pm »

I don't enjoy a tipped-up high end either- at least long-term; like a tipped-up midbass, it is something that can "grab" you at first but becomes tiresome quickly. But I have heard many systems, including some that weren't all that expensive, that didn't have the problem.

weitrhino · « **Reply #51 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 02:23 pm »

I am tired of this thread now.

blutto · « **Reply #52 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 02:40 pm »

Quote from: FULLRANGEMAN on 23 Jul 2012, 03:24 am

Some expensive fullrange drivers as Supravox, AER and Feastrex are near perfect peformance, some AER go far beyond 20Khz, but they cost alot.
The Supravox 215-2000 Alnico cost 1200euros /each and AER cost even more and Feastrex gulp...

...near perfect huh?....and then I guess we would then have that those near perfect drivers put into a near perfect cabinet connected to near perfect equipment and placed in a near perfect room.....and voila, near perfect sound...gee that sounds so darn simple its a wonder no one has done that yet.

...

...though as long as we are on this tack would be wonderful for you to clearly define near and perfect....as opposed to say, real, as in the real world...

Cheers

blutto

JohnR · « **Reply #53 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 02:42 pm »

I've found it an interesting thread to read, as the responses have generally been the opposite of what I expected.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #54 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 03:16 pm »

Quote from: playntheblues on 22 Jul 2012, 11:39 pm

Do you know how cheap a cow is per pound opposed to a steak?

Cows are about 10 cents per lb. Live FOB Basis or about 21 cents delivered dressed. (USDA Market News Service, Mon Jul 2, 2012) Or about 4.4% of the $4.69 avg retail (May) according to U.S. Department of Agriculture (using the delivered dressed price). So using planet10's excellent analysis, you're cooking Wilson Audio Watt Puppy's on your grill this weekend.

dodger4 · « **Reply #55 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 04:10 pm »

speaker prices are ridiculous,,huge markups,,listened to a few big buck ones ,overly detailed ,sounded nothing like a live performance and isnt that what listeners strive for ,something that sounds like the real thing .but retailers would rather sell the big bucks eqpt ,,and cant blame them money talks

medium jim · « **Reply #56 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 04:38 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 23 Jul 2012, 02:42 pm

I've found it an interesting thread to read, as the responses have generally been the opposite of what I expected.

JohnR:

All things considered, it went about as expected!

Jim

fredgarvin · « **Reply #57 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 04:54 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 23 Jul 2012, 02:42 pm

I've found it an interesting thread to read, as the responses have generally been the opposite of what I expected.

I've noticed the trend around here lately is defending high prices and veblen goods. That is a turnaround for AC, as it's been over the years. You might expect the economy would spur the opposite view.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #58 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 05:29 pm »

Quote from: fredgarvin on 23 Jul 2012, 04:54 pm

I've noticed the trend around here lately is defending high prices and veblen goods. That is a turnaround for AC, as it's been over the years. You might expect the economy would spur the opposite view.

Don't despair Fred, I think the response you allude to is sort of twofold, one is explaining retail market prices vs raw materials cost, which is not specifically defending the high prices charged. The other viewpoint is still somewhat distaff relative to most AC'ers and is the one defending the high prices as warranted. There is still big support here for, in example, the GR research model of building your own speakers using the design expertise of a professional, and cost effective solutions like Salk Speakers, where you pay one entity a sustainable markup, rather than support a supply chain that is becoming less and less necessary. There's no, that I can recall, owners of the brands and models on FRM's list popping up do defend their expenditures, all hope is not lost.

JBLMVBC · « **Reply #59 on:** 23 Jul 2012, 05:32 pm »

The fact some manufacturers go under despite the mark up should be read BECAUSE of the mark up...

Too many clones with the same average Scanspeak/Vifa etc... drivers, and after that people are surprised they all sound the same?

Bottomline, it is more rewarding and cost efficient to buy high quality professional drivers, follow basic construction principles widely available and go active filtering. Think for instance that Kenrick is offering a refurbished JBL 4343 pro monitor for about $16k a pair plus transportation. Compare this with a Watt Puppy and there is no photo finish.

Professional sound is comparatively cheaper than Hi End. As for the diamond midrange... buy a diamond ring to your wife in exchange for her letting you install larger speakers in the living room!