Which is More Important: Amp or Preamp?

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #20 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 04:25 am »

roscoeiii has posted the best point of it all....

Quote

Synergy is key

bhobba · « **Reply #21 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 07:10 am »

Quote from: lonewolfny42 on 21 Apr 2011, 04:25 am

roscoeiii has posted the best point of it all....

+1

These days I tend to prefer integrated's but as far as separates go synergy really is the key.

Thanks
Bill

Tyson · « **Reply #22 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 07:18 am »

Depends. If you are going from an SS preamp to a tube preamp, or vice versa, it makes less difference than going from an SS amp to a tubed amp. Of course, IMO tubes for preamp and tubes for amps is the way to go

If you can only do one, then go with a tubed amp first and get the tubed pre later.

Photon46 · « **Reply #23 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 09:55 am »

IMO, it's hard to make useful judgments about this questions. It's a chicken & the egg kind of dilemma. I used to think the preamp was more important. But that was just because I had a series of more or less run of the mill competent but not extraordinary amps. Then I bought an amp by the same designer as my preamplifier and I experienced a positive synergy that was unlike anything I ever heard before. Is it the preamp?? Well, it sounded good with the other amps I used, but nothing like the sound I get now. The amp sounds very good with other preamps, but again, nothing like it does with it's matching partner. Together, they are the proverbial lightning in a bottle. How often is this the case across other product lines? I don't know, but it's interesting to consider. Also, as has been previously stated, there has to be a synergy and good compatibility between amp & speakers.

pardales · « **Reply #24 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 10:18 am »

Quote from: bhobba on 21 Apr 2011, 07:10 am

+1

These days I tend to prefer integrated's but as far as separates go synergy really is the key.

Thanks
Bill

My conclusion as well.

rollo · « **Reply #25 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 01:04 pm »

I think by now we all know about synergy. Saying that a preamp brings gain to the party which translates into weight and body. Other features such as a mono switch, balance control, polarity switch, source selection add to pleasure.
Passives are good but miss out on the soul. If clarity and transparency are your goals go passive. If transparency and body are your goals try a an active preamp.
Which makes more of a difference. Hard to say. If your amp/speaker combo is dead on than a preamp would enhance that. From my own experience is was always the preamp that changed the game the most. Have fun trying.

charles

lcrim · « **Reply #26 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 01:58 pm »

I have not used a preamp in years. There was a time when I did, but the amps I have now have passive attenuators and I like the way they sound w/o an active preamp. A passive may be a better solution but, in all honesty, I've never heard one in my home that actually worked.
Active preamps are not needed for gain as there's more gain than needed w/o the pre. I've read a number of reviews that discuss the "density" added to the presention. All I've ever heard was more power supply noise.
Perhaps a lower gain like 8 or 9 decibels would work but for now I'm going to leave it alone. It was a revelation when I removed the active (tube) preamps and heard the music again.
Sorry to sound negative about active preamps but in my experience, the amp is more important. So much so that I don't use a preamp anymore just a phono section when I listen to vinyl.

woodsyi · « **Reply #27 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 02:23 pm »

I am not a big fan of passives. I read from somewhere that an active preamp is not just adding gain to the input signal as it passes to the amp. What it's really doing is rebuilding the output from it's own PS mirroring the input amplitude -- thus the importance on the power supply. A good active preamp will "improve" the output signal by eliminating the insertion and what not loss you get in the passives. This buffering really "adds" body to the music compared to passives. IMHO.

doug s. · « **Reply #28 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 11:07 pm »

Quote from: Tyson on 21 Apr 2011, 07:18 am

Depends. If you are going from an SS preamp to a tube preamp, or vice versa, it makes less difference than going from an SS amp to a tubed amp. Of course, IMO tubes for preamp and tubes for amps is the way to go If you can only do one, then go with a tubed amp first and get the tubed pre later.

my experience has been opposite - having used both tube & s/s amps & pre's, i'd not give up my tubed pre, if i could have tubes in only one place. but, i also agree that tubed amp and pre is best. except for subwoofers; i use s/s amps for those.

and, i think that a pre is more important than an amp, assuming proper synergy between your amp & speakers...

doug s.

bhobba · « **Reply #29 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 02:02 am »

Quote from: woodsyi on 21 Apr 2011, 02:23 pm

I am not a big fan of passives. I read from somewhere that an active preamp is not just adding gain to the input signal as it passes to the amp. What it's really doing is rebuilding the output from it's own PS mirroring the input amplitude -- thus the importance on the power supply. A good active preamp will "improve" the output signal by eliminating the insertion and what not loss you get in the passives. This buffering really "adds" body to the music compared to passives.

Gain in a pre amp is simply not required these days. It is impedance matching that is important - ie the source sees a high input impedance and the amp a low output impedance. The best (ie most transparent) pre amp I know is the Truth which does exactly that:
http://www.thehornshoppe.com/the_truth_pre_amp.html

I have one on order to check out but guys who have heard it say it is better than a Lightspeed (its a passive and like you I don't like them as they make impedance matching issues worse - you may be OK - but likely you won't) and a Burson Buffer. Now what I am about to say does not change my view synergy is the key but if I was going the pre with power amp route a product like the Truth would be my choice of pre and choose the power amp I like best.

Thanks
Bill

roscoeiii · « **Reply #30 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 02:30 am »

Quote from: bhobba on 22 Apr 2011, 02:02 am

. The best (ie most transparent) pre amp I know is the Truth...

I have one on order to check out but guys who have heard it say it is better than a Lightspeed (its a passive and like you I don't like them as they make impedance matching issues worse - you may be OK - but likely you won't) and a Burson Buffer.

The best you "know" without ever having heard it? Sorry, but transparency (and straight wire with gain) claims are a dime a dozen.

I look forward to hearing your impressions once it arrives, but to proclaim something "best" that you have not heard, not to mention without taking into account the system into which it is placed and the listening preferences of the reviewer...

Pez · « **Reply #31 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 05:51 am »

Just to really blow some minds... I don't even use a preamp.

And no we're not talking integrated either.

Rclark · « **Reply #32 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 07:08 am »

This is my kinda thread. Now we're gettin somewhere

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #33 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 07:09 am »

I think I know what yer sayin Pez, but what are you sayin? Thanks

bhobba · « **Reply #34 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 12:23 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 22 Apr 2011, 02:30 am

The best you "know" without ever having heard it? Sorry, but transparency (and straight wire with gain) claims are a dime a dozen. I look forward to hearing your impressions once it arrives, but to proclaim something "best" that you have not heard, not to mention without taking into account the system into which it is placed and the listening preferences of the reviewer...

Yes indeed it is the best I know of and I have not heard it - I actually believe what people I trust tell me. Sorry if that does not meet with your view of how such things are judged.

Thanks
Bill

bhobba · « **Reply #35 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 12:35 pm »

Quote from: Pez on 22 Apr 2011, 05:51 am

Just to really blow some minds... I don't even use a preamp. And no we're not talking integrated either.

Well I know of someone who directly connects his DAC to his amp. He actually controls volume by re-burning his disks at the volume he likes. Of course this does not give you much leeway in volume without significant bit dropping but by all accounts it is very transparent. A number of people say this is the best system they have heard. IMHO you can achieve the same using the dithered volume control on a player like Pure Music.

Thanks
Bill

Pez · « **Reply #36 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 01:21 pm »

<- check out my system. The DCX does volume control so no preamp necessary.

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 22 Apr 2011, 07:09 am

I think I know what yer sayin Pez, but what are you sayin? Thanks

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #37 on:** 26 Apr 2011, 04:01 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 21 Apr 2011, 03:08 am

Surprised it hasn't been mentioned here yet. While a preamp can certainly influence a system's sound to a great degree, the importance of getting a good match between you power amp and your speakers is huge. Be sure to look into what your speakers need from an amp to make sure you get an amp that is the best match.

Synergy is key.

+1

Gain structure and system building are key.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #38 on:** 26 Apr 2011, 04:05 pm »

Quote from: stereocilia on 21 Apr 2011, 03:36 am

I think the amp is more important.

I think the amp has a more difficult task and so I tend to agree with you. Of course we should never buy an amp without a speaker in mind, or vice versa.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #39 on:** 26 Apr 2011, 04:29 pm »

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 21 Apr 2011, 03:44 am

I have a Counterpoint SA5 pre that is not working. The outboard tube power supply blew its tube. Plus I can see the main board arc with its frame in the dark. Just needs a little solder, probably. I called Michael Elliot and he wanted six hundred dollars up front to look at it. Bout that time a local dealer friend called and said a customer was on his way in to trade his ARC LS7 for an SP15. So, I bought it for $700.00 and coupled it to a phono pre I had. This was a few years ago in case you can't tell. I paid retail for the Counterpoint, however. What the hey, think I'll see if I can find Mr. Elliot after all and give the repair of my SA5 some more thought. I, too, have had more preamps than amps. If someone wanted to interject tube amplification into their system, I would suggest it be the preamp. Less money, too, I believe.

Hey Jim, what's up?

Couple of thoughts on the Counterpoint SA5 :

1. If the original "big rectangular can" capacitor is still in your outboard power supply , then that puppy needs to be replaced. I don't know if there are any direct replacement parts available, but a substitute electrolytic capacitor should fit fine . I had a friend help me replace mine with a standard electrolytic back in the mid 90's and we got it to fit in the case. I also spent some time inspecting and reflowing poor solder joints.

2. Actually, I had to replace a few things in all of the Counterpoint gear that I've ever owned (pre amp, phono pre-pre amp, and hybrid power amp). Just about any decent tube tech can do this for you at a fraction of the cost that...

3. Mike Elliot grossly overcharges you.