A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio

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Danny Richie

Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #60 on: 4 Mar 2007, 10:07 pm »
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TubroFC3S, not sure if you are being sarcastic on not

Was the rest of my post deleted?  After you replyed, I can not seem to find it.

Yes, he was being sarcastic.

Your post was not deleted just moved to the appropriete place where we put all of those that just come to cause trouble and can't positively contribute.

konut

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Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #61 on: 4 Mar 2007, 10:10 pm »
I, for one , know what I'm looking at when I see the graphs on Zaph Audio. I take them at face value. Whats at issue is the editorial comments Krutke adds to the data. When the data diverges from the editorial(conclusions) that Krutke draws, it calls into question motive. There are those that don't know how to read the data. Danny has explained to those the divergence between the data and conclusions. Personally, I don't care what Krutkes' motives are. I find the graphs useful. I draw my own conclusions. I don't have a problem with Danny explaining his side of the story espesially when its evident the editorial conclusions have caused confusion among potential customers . Krutke has no potential customers. While I find his site interesting, with plenty of useul data, I don't take everything there as the gospel truth. You shouldn't either. It is just another, among many, data points to consider.

Audio-fiilis

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Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #62 on: 4 Mar 2007, 10:26 pm »
What i am waiting for is the response to the results of harmonic distortion John got. I believe Danny should  have an utmost issue with those, because 3rd harmonic is something you have difficulty to cope with, if you have ears. CSD and frequency response are minor problems compared to 3rd harmonic. That distorted by author would be an issue, even legally, if you can afford. Would Danny, please, respond to that. the comment of having the copper ring is , in my opinion, sufficient mechanically but there still is an issue of the highish harmonics not handled well by that indeed existing ring.

Danny Richie

Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #63 on: 4 Mar 2007, 10:39 pm »
Another first time poster huh? This seams odd doesn't it?

See page one and the third post for some comments on John's measured distortion tests.

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That distorted by author would be an issue, even legally, if you can afford.

I am not even sure what you are trying to say here.

pmel

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Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #64 on: 4 Mar 2007, 11:19 pm »
Sorry if you feel that I don't have anything constructive to say.  I just feel that you have handled this very unprofessionally. 

The problem is that he has documeted his test procedures, and told everyone how any why he is testing the way he is.  You have taken his measurements, and said they are wrong.  Thats nice, I know you are very well known, and sucessful in this industry.  I have heard great things about many of your drivers, and designs.  But, he's wrong because you said so doesn't cut it.  Wheres your measurements, wheres your test procedure documentation?  Give us something other than a paper on the fact that drivers can take more than 10 hours to break in.  All I see you doing is arguing his procedures, measurements, and techniques.  Lets see yours, and have it scrutinized under a microscope also.  Chances are people will find error in some of your processes also.  This industry faces the same problems as most others in the consumer electronics market.  There is no standarized testing, so everyone reports differently to help sell their products.  That is not a shot against GR research, thats just the truth all MFR's do it.  Thats what makes Zaph's site good.  It test all products equally.  I understand that this isn't always the best show of each product, but it about as unbaised as we can get unfortantly.  I would hate to see that get ruined because of a questionable review.

Daygloworange

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Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #65 on: 4 Mar 2007, 11:46 pm »
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Give us something other than a paper on the fact that drivers can take more than 10 hours to break in.

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Lets see yours, and have it scrutinized under a microscope also.

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Wheres your measurements, wheres your test procedure documentation?


My, my, my....

Pretty demanding, aren't we???????

Cheers




pmel

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Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #66 on: 4 Mar 2007, 11:53 pm »
lol, ya a little I quess.  what can I say audio is a tough market.

Daygloworange

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Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #67 on: 4 Mar 2007, 11:54 pm »
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what can I say audio is a tough market.

Really?????? Ya don't say......

Cheers

Kevin Haskins

Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #68 on: 5 Mar 2007, 12:13 am »
Wow... this has become a hot potato.

Its funny how the personalities in a debate are as important as the content. 

A big part of the problem of people posting "third party unbiased" measurements or opinions is that they can be wrong or incomplete.   Also, most people don't know how to put them in context.  Everyone is biased.   Even if you use objective data all of us are human.  I think that John (Mr. Objectivity) not liking Danny’s methods (Mr. Subjectivity) would probably just add to any potential barbs flying in the GR direction.  :D   Having said that, I don't think John is out to get anyone.

Its no fun when someone post something that isn't exactly glowing about your product.   Its even less fun when it isn't deserved.   I feel for you Danny but you would probably be better off just letting the issue drop.   I'd say 99% of your customers wouldn't have even known about the measurements had you not brought the issue up.   

Sometimes ignoring a fly on your head is more effective than hitting it with a hammer.   Although I have a few divits in my head from not following that advice.   :wink:

zybar

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Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #69 on: 5 Mar 2007, 12:29 am »
Sometimes ignoring a fly on your head is more effective than hitting it with a hammer.   Although I have a few divits in my head from not following that advice.   :wink:

Very nice words of wisdom Kevin. 

George

dB Cooper

Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #70 on: 5 Mar 2007, 01:12 am »
I would like to offer something positive: Neither Danny or John, neither of whom I know, appear to be the father of Anna Nicole Smith's baby.

laserman

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Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #71 on: 5 Mar 2007, 01:14 am »
Danny,

I know posting this issue on AC was not an easy decision for you to make, but it had to be done because John left you no other way to discuss this instant grievance based on what the measured results he had posted on his monologued blog implied. Yes, you had to stand up for what you perceived as a wrong done to you personally. The tone of his email and remarks on the results of the measurements were obviously negative.   Good show for putting this on the forum! :thumb:

Okay, not being an EE, audio DIYer, psychologist or psychiatrist, I have learned way more than I thought I would from a technical aspect as well as the interaction of human beings.

I love how the Trolls come out of their inky dark shadows to have their self-righteous voices heard.  Oh yeah, lets not forget about the piling on Danny folks either.  All the while saying they are not trying to speak for John or side with him, they are just trying to espouse the true technical speaker driver rosetta stone.
 
Danny has every right to explain he feelings on John’s measured results and how he was treated when he tried to have a dialogue with him (he tried via PM diplomacy).  John decided to be dismissive and downright arrogant and rude.  As a member of the human race, I feel Danny has approached this matter in a very civil and balanced style considering it is an attack on his livelihood.

On the technical side of the issue, I understand what all parties are saying up to a certain level of competency.  The bottom line for me is how does this driver perform in its intended end use application.  I believe Danny has addressed it by talking about XO design and the parameters in which the M130 operates as well as all the other competitive woofers for a given speaker.  I think more important is how his designs (solely or jointly with another designer) are perceived by customers and reviewers?  In my brief Internet search, he seems to be in the top percentile of designers/manufacturers who are thought of very favorably by both parties.

Are Danny’s drivers and speaker designs the best of the best bar none.  Nope! Has Danny made products that were not stellar performers?  Yes, and he will be the first to admit it and tell you how he has improved from those missteps.  Danny, like any great designer/experimenter, is always looking beyond the horizon to see what may be possible.  It’s not that he’s not ever satisfied but rather it’s more of trying something new and different to see how it works.  Heck, look at all the work he did on those stupidly sick BB Insignia speakers.  He did it out of curiosity, passion and fun.  He then passed all of his vetting and discovery to everyone (and offered a mod kit for a very modest fee to those who wanted it).  Danny has always been very approachable and tolerant of neophytes like me.

I am a fan of Danny’s because he has never been condescending or self-important and has repeatedly shown me he was genuinely curious and interested in my opinion and impressions.  Why?  Because that is one of the ways he learns how things are working out in the field.  More business leaders should practice Danny’s business acumen model.

Peace!

L

PS Geez, I thought maybe Danny would jump on the father of baby Nicole bandwagon!

Danny Richie

Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #72 on: 5 Mar 2007, 01:55 am »
pmel, Let me address a few things for you so that hopefully you will understand where I am coming from.

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I just feel that you have handled this very unprofessionally. 


I am sorry. I am human, but do the best I can. I let it go for a long time.

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The problem is that he has documeted his test procedures, and told everyone how any why he is testing the way he is. You have taken his measurements, and said they are wrong.


That is not what brought this on. My only real issues with his measurements are that I don't think the drivers were burned in prior to testing them, and two, I question the level of accuracy in taking distortion measurements (below 1kHz or so) in a semi-anechoic environment. Even the Clio measurement manual states the problems that limit accuracy in this type of testing.

My greater issues that pushed me to finally respond were what I feel was a very biased commentary made about the measurements and his attitude and ill tempered response to my e-mail communication with him. Had it not been for the nasty e-mail from him, that I got when I attempted to extend a hand to him, I probably would have still just blown it off.

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Give us something other than a paper on the fact that drivers can take more than 10 hours to break in.

Sure here you go: http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.shtm

Included are responses from an accredited driver designer and manufacturer.

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Sometimes ignoring a fly on your head is more effective than hitting it with a hammer.

Yea I know Kevin. I have a few battle scars myself. This one has been buzzing for a while now and the e-mail response from him kind of pushed it for me.

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I know posting this issue on AC was not an easy decision for you to make...

Tough! I much would have rather had a nice phone chat with the guy, exchanged some information, helped him out if I could, and try to become allies and not enemies.

I don't care if he believes what I believe or not, but there's no reason to be disrespectful to one another.

Take Kevin here. I don't think we see eye to eye on some issues. He is more of the objective camp and I the subjective camp, but we get a long just fine and I think of him as a friend.

I am actually pretty easy going until I am backed into a corner.

Thanks again for all of those that have contributed kind words.

Hank

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Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #73 on: 5 Mar 2007, 02:20 am »
Nice post, laserman.  I hate to disappoint you, but there's no Paparazi opp here.  Danny is a happily married family man, and no matter when I call him, he answers the phone, so he doesn't have enough spare time to be the father.  Look elsewhere - maybe to people who don't take e-mails and phone calls.  :wink:

Danny Richie

Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #74 on: 5 Mar 2007, 02:36 am »
Hey John Krutke,

If you're still following along...? You know I really hated posting this initial thread, and I hate where it has gone. I still would have rather had a civil discussion with you about this stuff and would still like to. And I'd still be glad to assist you in any way that I can. I still have a hand out to you and would still love to chat.

I can still be reached at 940-592-3400 if you change your mind.

Hank

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Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #75 on: 5 Mar 2007, 02:58 am »
Good attitude, Danny!  I believe that even if you're wrong on an engineering/physics/acoustics point, which I, among many DIY-ers can't judge, at least you're willing to have a dialogue with the person with whom you have a disagreement.  That's the bottom line to me.  You have detactors and I see them in two camps:
1) Anti-Danny for whatever reason, some possibly going back years when you were a "tad" abrasivley defensive (not the contemporary Danny for sure).  Some of them may even be coming from the strange, permanently polarized 'metal-versus-paper cone' camps.  Questionable first-time posts, etc.
2) Those who objectively, intellectually disagree with some of your statements, and who seem to know the subject.

I truly hope John and you can have a civil, professional discussion.  The outcome would most likely NOT be complete agreement between you, but that's the real world, and it also would also most likely be agreement between you on MOST aspects of drivers, with only a point or two of "agree to disagree".  Man, what a contribution to us novice DIY-ers that would be!

No one took me up on having drivers tested in an anechoic chamber by an objective driver manufacturer, so I'll not bring that up again.


dlr

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Thanks for the kind words
« Reply #76 on: 5 Mar 2007, 03:59 am »
Debate is good as long as it remains civil. There are too many on the other boards that take it all too personally. Some of us just like to look more into the inner workings of the individual drivers in making assessments.

But if we all agreed on too much, we'd only have one kind of driver, be it paper, poly, kevlar, aluminum, whatever. I'm glad that not everyone agrees all the time.

Lots of discussions kept going towards hard cones as the only "good" cone, since it was much more pistonic up to breakup. I kept saying the SS 12m4631 was excellent even though it's doped paper. Heck, it's got a neodymium magnet WITHOUT a Faraday ring. Some were saying it couldn't stand up. That is, until several different people measured it, Mark, John and Klang and Ton (not sure of the name) magazine, all very close. Suddenly there was more interest in the 12m. Well, except John. He wonders why spend the money when the RS125 measures almost as well and is so much cheaper. Except that it doesn't do 2nd order well, my usage.

So sometimes folks come around. I've done so a few times myself.

Scotty

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Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #77 on: 5 Mar 2007, 04:04 am »
When the individual doing the measurements publishes a disclaimer as I quoted in my previous post, http://tinyurl.com/28b27a  ,in which he flat out tells you that his measurements cannot be considered diffinitive and only have a relative validity within the specific group of drivers measured you know that they cannot be defended as accurate or representative past the original limits set forth in the disclaimer.
John's interpretation of admittedly imperfect measurements cannot be considered entirely accurate or valid either.
When it comes to understanding the audible consequences of a set of driver measurements I will once again have to consider Danny's take on the subject more valid than John's especially when the measured distortion parameters may change with a longer breakin period. I would like to see similar measurements of CSD, Harmonic distortion and frequency response taken on the M130 as a comparision which could document the changes that are a result driver break in phenonmena. 

As far as which measurements maybe more accurate, I will have to consider Danny's measurements as correct, because he uses the Clio system, per the manufacturers instructions. Again refering to John's disclaimer and quoting [All parts of this test are done with Soundeasy 10.0. This is a modeling package with a lot of extra testing applications included. It is not a full acoustic measurement system such as CLIO or Praxis however, so take these results with a grain of salt.]
Arguments about distortion types and definitions are moot points when
the admited measurement limitations are taken into consideration.
People actually hire Danny to design loudspeakers for them as a professional
designer in the audio field. This is a point in his favor as far credibility is concerned. He is no doubt considered an expert in the field by those who contract for his services as a loudspeaker designer. Edited to remove erroneous
content.
Scotty
« Last Edit: 5 Mar 2007, 06:51 am by Scotty »

Scotty

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Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #78 on: 5 Mar 2007, 04:55 am »
dlr, A question on an unrelated topic, which driver reproduced music with higher fidelity when listened to,the SS 12m4631 or the  RS125.
Scotty

RAW

Re: A response to misleading information posted on Zaph Audio
« Reply #79 on: 5 Mar 2007, 05:10 am »
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He also holds the patent for designing the XBL^2 motor structure.
Scotty
Sorry you are not correct with this statment.
XBL^2 technology is a Adire Audio patent
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2TechPaper.pdf
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2DetailsPaper.pdf
Q : What is XBL2
 A : XBL2 is a BL linear motor system used and patented by Adire Audio (US Patent 7,039,213). 

Danny has a few drivers designed with the Adire Audio XBL^2 motor as well as other companies