Two paths taken - budget and audiophile - is there that much of a difference?

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jsaliga

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Earlier this year I decided to part company with the Garrard 401 that I had been happily using for about 4 years.  It had two Jelco tonearms, one 9" and the other 12".  The rig was mounted in a custom made heavy walnut
plinth.  For cartridges I was using a Ortofon SPU Gold Reference stereo and for mono it was a Ortofon SPU CG25 DIMKII. 

I'm not really sure why got rid of it and moved on.  I was tremendously happy with it.  Part of the reason, I believe, is that I always had this burning question in my mind about what sort of performance and listening experience there is to be had at the budget end of the cost spectrum.  I haven't really experienced that in many years, and over the last 10 years or so the lowest cost vinyl rig that I have owned -- including turntable, arm, and cartridge -- was somewhere in the neighborhood of $4,200.  So last spring I was determined to clear out some space in my audio racks and get a pair of direct drive turntables.  At the time I already owned what was an unused Technics SL-1200MKII.  But I wanted two tables, one would have a stereo cart and the other would be home to a mono cart.  Why not just change cartridges?  It is easy enough, after all.  While true, changing cartridges would require that I set VTA and VTF when making the swap, and then adjusting the phono preamp gain and loading to match.  Too much of a hassle, as I like to switch between mono and stereo LPs on the fly without any interruptions to my listening sessions.  But buying a second SL-1200MKII would turn out to be an expensive proposition since Technics has discontinued them and the asking price on the used market is exorbitant, to say the least.

So I decided to put my SL-1200MKII up for sale on eBay.  I would use the proceeds to purchase two Pioneer PLX-1000 direct drive SL-12xx clones.  The Pioneer cost $699 retail.  I did a lot of homework on this turntable and decided that it would meet my needs.  I sold the Technics for enough to buy two PLX-1000s and a pair of Herbies Audio Labs Way Excellent II turntable mats.  I went with the Audio Technica AT-OC9/III for stereo.  I have had no prior experience with Audio Technica cartridges so I did a lot of research on it.  For mono I decided to buy more than one cartrdige and went with the Ortofon Quintet Mono, Ortofon OM D25M, and Audio Technica AT33MONO.  I added a pair iFi Audio iPhono phono preamps to complete the set up. 

Here is what a complete PLX-1000 setup cost me:

Turtable - $699
Mat - $80
Cartridge - $499
Phono Preamp - $429

Total ~ $1,700

Here is what my system looked like with both tables...



The PLX-1000 with the Ortofon Quintet Mono...



...and with the Audio Technica AT33MONO



I was very happy with this set up.  It was transparent enough that I wasn't getting distracted by shortcomings of the equipment as I was listening to music.  And I found that I could get just as lost in the music as I could with much more expensive rigs that I have owned.  The only real fault I could find that a tiny amount of hum was making it to my speakers, but it was well below the noise floor of vinyl so when records were playing I couldn't hear it, even during breaks between tracks or in the lead-in and run-out grooves.

I felt the PLX-1000 - AT-OC9/III combo performed well above its price point.  I especially liked the OC9/III's tight, punchy bass and extended treble.  Cymbals and hi-hats have an amazing life-like character on this cartridge, and midrage performance is great as well.

Over the summer I decided to turn my substantial collection of about 3,300 CDs into cash.  Most of the digital music I listen to is hi res content that I download from High Definition Tape Transfers, Acoustic Sounds, or HD Tracks.  And even then digital music only accounts for perhaps 5% or so of my total listening time.  Most of the music that I had on CD I also have on vinyl.  So I ended up selling the entire lot between two stores.  I also came into a financial windfall and started thinking again about audiophile turntables.  Why would I do that if I was truly happy with the Pioneer PLX-1000 rigs?  Well, because I can is the only real answer I can offer.  There were a few turntables out there that have always interested me but I have never owned: Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace, JA Michell Orbe, and the Origin Live Resolution -- all made in Great Britain.  I also briefly considered a Pro-ject Xtension 10 or 12 but after doing some research on these tables I was left with a lot of concers about build quality.  Long story short is that the British made tables I was looking at were all over-engineered and featured superb build quality.

I went with a Nottingham Space 294, rather than the Hyperspace, because I wanted a 12" arm.  I added the heavy duty upgrade kit and bought the Ace-Space 12" tonearm.  For a cartridge I already had a Dynavector XX2 MKII that was used as a backup and had very low hours on it.  But I wanted to try a Lyra so I bought a Lyra Delos with the turntable.  Here is how the cost breaks down.

Space 294 Turntable - $3,499.00
Heavy Duty Upgrade Kit - $1,499
Space-Ace 12" tonearm - $1,899
Lyra Delos - $1,650.00

Total ~ $8,547

Here are some pictures.  The shipping weight was 85lbs:









I had to wait two weeks for the heavy duty upgrade kit because the U.S. Distributor and Nottingham audio dealer, Audio Encounter Solutions did not have it in stock so they had to order one from the factory.

Here is the turntable with the heavy duty kit installed.



The Nottingham turntable is a model of simplicity, in some cases that is its great strength and in others it is arguably a weakness.

On the strength side of the equation is the sheer mass of the platter.  With the heavy kit installed the platter weighs about 40 to 45 lbs.  It is a monster to lift and install.  The motor is a low torque AC unit.  There is no on/off switch so power is always applied to the motor.  It does not have enough torque to set the platter in motion from a dead stop.  You have to manually give the platter a spin and the motor provides just enough energy to keep it moving.  Initially I was a little concerned about how speed stable it was.  I put a key strobe on it and the speed is spot on accurate at both 33 and 45 RPM.  You change speeds by moving the belt on the pulley.  It takes just a second or two to do.



On the weakness side is the lack of any sort of calibrated adjustments on the tonearm.





Everything is all there in terms of adjustments: Azimuth, VTA, VTF, Anti-skate.  But the system is rather crude and takes some getting used to.  That said, I did not have too much trouble dialing in the recommended VTF of 1.75g for the Lyra Delos, and getting everything else set up.  It just takes a little more patience than other arms.

Something else worth noting is that the Nottingham arm is a unipivot.  This was almost a deal breaker for me because I have an intense dislike of unipivot arms.  But the Nottingham Analogue arm is like no other unipivot arm that I have ever seen.  It employs a race bearing that keeps the arm stable and prevents wobbling.  It is a rather clever, if not ingenious, approach to the design.

So there are my two tables.  The obvious questions are:

How much better is the Nottingham Space 294 than the Pioneer PLX-1000?  Does it sound $6,800 better?

Since having both of these tables set up and in use now for a while I haven't really given that a great deal of thought.  I use the Pioneer PLX-1000 for most vintage stereo vinyl, and for all of my mono LPs (vintage and audiophile).  I use the Nottingham Space 294 for all of my audiophile stereo pressings (I own enough of them to make having this turntable worthwhile).  Before I bought the Nottingham, I was listening to my audiophile vinyl on the Pioneer and was completely satisfied.  That being the case, the more expensive Nottingham does not sound all that much better than the Pioneer.  I know that may shock some people, especially those who believe that cost closely correlates to performance.  I have never held that view, and have long believed that in the audio game the point of diminishing returns is much lower than what is widely accepted by most audiophiles.  My feeling is that if you are going to spend lavishly anywhere in your set up, buy the best pair of loudspeakers you can afford.  Now, some might be quick to point out that I am biased and therefore my experience is nothing more than a self-fullfilling prophecy.  It would be hard to argue otherwise.  However, this is not a case where I bought a budget turntable and then argued against audiophile class gear that I haven't heard.  Moreover, no one sent the Nottingham to me to try.  I bought the turntable with my own money.

Now ask me if I think the Nottingham turntable is worth the price of admission.  Damn skippy it is.  The turntable is over-engineerd, a work of analogue engineering art, and a fine performing turntable.  I have no regrets whatsoever about the purchase.  I didn't buy it because I was expecting it to leave the Pioneer PLX-1000 in the dust performance-wise.

So my advice to people considering a turntable is this: 1) If you have $50,000 burning a hole in your pocket and won't miss the money then go for it, and buy yourself any one of a number of boutique audio turntables in that price class that catches your eye.  It will give you and your audio friends a lot to talk about and it will certainly sound great.  On the other hand, if you are expecting it to sound $47,000 better than someone's $3K rig then that probably is not going to be the case and you are likely to be disappointed.  At that high of a price you zoomed past the point of diminishing returns 10s of thousands of dollars ago.  2)  For someone who is trying to strech their audio dollars and has a modest amount of money to play with, don't fret.  You don't need to spend a lot to get a lot in terms of performance.  You do need to spend some, however.  What I would advise against is over-extending yourself financially to get something like, say, an Origin Live Resolution when a direct drive like the Pioneer PLX-1000 and a solid performing MC cartridge like the AT-OC9/III are easily within reach.  It might not win a beauty contest but it will damn sure make excellent sounding music.

--Jerome

S Clark

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Interesting read.  I wonder if you find your music more enjoyable than you did with the Garrard...

jsaliga

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Well, I think there is that bit of euphoria that goes with the acquisition of any new audio toy.  But for me the honeymoon is usually over pretty quickly and I can think about this stuff from a somewhat detached perspective.  Put another way, if you asked me would I enjoy my music any less if the Nottingham turntable were replaced with the other Pioneer PLX-1000 that I had...the answer is no, I wouldn't.  I don't miss the Garrard either but I could go back to that set up today and be just has happy.

--Jerome
« Last Edit: 14 Dec 2015, 01:07 pm by jsaliga »

*Scotty*

Another point in favor of the Nottingham Space 294 deck is that regardless of future system upgrades, you will probably never reach the point where the Nottingham TT becomes the weakest link in the chain. The same may not hold true for the Pioneer TT.
Congrats on acquisition of a gorgeous TT.  :green:
Scotty

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Is the rest of your system up to snuff?

I suspect if you didn't have the Herbies mats you'd see a much bigger difference.

jsaliga

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Is the rest of your system up to snuff?

Not sure what exactly you're getting at, but I'll guess you're looking for some systemic reason why I don't think the Nottingham table sounds that much better than the Pioneer.  I'm not really interested in exploring that.  Let's just say that I have been around audio for 40 years and understand very well what makes for a good sounding system.  The main reason I am not hearing much of a difference is because there isn't one.  That is not to say that the Nottingham is not a better turntable.  It is considerably better in terms of design and build, and slightly better in terms of performance.  Now, understand that what I characterize as small differences someone else might say are huge. 

Quote
I suspect if you didn't have the Herbies mats you'd see a much bigger difference.

Very true,  I tried the PLX-1000 with the two mats it came with, one was felt the other rubber.  The rubber mat was terrible.  The felt mat was ok but the Herbies mat was a big improvement.

--Jerome

rooze

I like this thread. It makes me feel better about my budget gear.

Do you think that possibly the iFi phono is restricting the true potential of the Nottingham deck and perhaps leveling the playing field somewhat? I'm looking for a new phono presently and the iFi is on my list, so I'm not looking to pick apart your choices just perhaps for your thoughts on going with a modestly priced phono pre.

Cheers

geowak

Aside from learning great tips and the experience of much accumulated hi-fi knowledge in this forum at AC, I can say that the other discovery I have made here is this.

Hi-fi of the quality talked about here is a rich man's game. Many components bought and sold here for many thousands of dollars or (fill in your currency here) are out of reach for the budget minded. There have been many times I have thought that the fellow AC members here, many who travel to hi end audio shows probably buy something there or get the gear advertised in TAS or Stereophile mags. No hostility here at all. Just what I have gathered.....

So therefore there is that much of a difference. If not, there is much disappointment or just waste of money on hi-end gear. For some the give and take of hi-fi is just fun, regardless of how much money is spent.

jsaliga

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I like this thread. It makes me feel better about my budget gear.

Do you think that possibly the iFi phono is restricting the true potential of the Nottingham deck and perhaps leveling the playing field somewhat? I'm looking for a new phono presently and the iFi is on my list, so I'm not looking to pick apart your choices just perhaps for your thoughts on going with a modestly priced phono pre.

Cheers

No I really don't believe so.  But I think it is fair to say that I do not hold to conventional audiophile wisdom on these matters -- meaning I don't agree that things always improve when you throw more money at your system.  I have owned some expensive phono preamps over the years, including a $4,500 Aesthetix Rhea that disappointed me greatly given its cost, to other units that I did not feel delivered performance that was commensurate with their asking price.  They were good, to be sure, but I found comparable and sometimes better performance in more sensibly priced units.

I like the iPhono because:

1. To my ears it does not color the sound
2. It doesn't add noise to the signal path.
3. Has adjustable gain up to 66db and adjustable loading from 47K to 33 ohms.
4. Has a subsonic filter (I don't use it but I think it is a plus that the iPhono has it).
5. Has six EQ curves

Also, iFi Audio publishes the full specifications of the product including frequency response, dynamic range, and S-N ratio, etc..  So I give them props for that because it is something you seldom see.

That said, it always pays to do your homework and to try before you buy if possible.

--Jerome
« Last Edit: 14 Dec 2015, 01:24 pm by jsaliga »

londonbarn

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Yes, like Ray Samuels Nighthawk phono stage...  Value off the charts!!

jsaliga

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I had a RSA Nighthawk for about 2 years.  It had plenty of adjustability and sounded great.  The only drawback for me was that you couldn't use it while the battery was charging.

--Jerome

ArthurDent

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Thanks for the write-up Jerome, appreciate you taking the time.  :thumb: Have been giving consideration to picking up a 2nd table for a bit now. In my case more because my old Thorens has sounded so good right out of storage, I'm afraid to mess with it until forced to. Your experience & thoughts provide some valuable perspective to the determinations moving forward.

JD

brooklyn

Interesting right-up, I enjoyed it very much. Thank you for taking the time to do it.

sharpsuxx

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GREAT post!  I enjoyed reading this more than most professionally written articles, very level headed.  I think I have decided on my new Analog set up.  Thanks for the wisdom.

rollo

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  Jerome very informative but best of all honest. No games no owner pride getting in the way. As a TT dealer I agree 100% about improvement vs cost. The degree in improvement that will cost you plenty to obtain which you will rarely equals cost difference.
   Same for cartriges IMO. Matching the phono stage, cart and TT will yield as good or close enough to the more costly components.

charles
   

eclubow

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I've had pretty much the same experience as you. When you buy a costly piece of gear, there's a lot of subconscious justification going on. I have no doubt that past a certain price point, the law of diminishing returns applies. I posted about this on another site a couple of years ago. Here's what I wrote:

Many of you will, no doubt, think me crazy for this admission but I'll go ahead anyway. Though I grew up in the 50s, it wasn't until 1999 that I really got the vinyl bug. After collecting several thousand CDs, I decided to give vinyl a try again, and never turned back. I loved everything about it (except, of course, the lousy pressings). Initially, I bought a Rega 25 and loved the sound.

Several years ago, having read the superlative reviews of the TW Acustic Raven, I decided, there must be something to this.As long as I was so passionate about vinyl, I thought I might as well invest in a better table. I went to Jeff Catalano's apartment in New York to sample the table. I had brought my Rega with me at the time to play against the Raven One. It was really tough for me to compare the sound of the two tables. Certainly, I thought I should hear a huge difference, since the Raven was unquestionably a better table. Combined with Jeff's electronics, I imagined there should be no contest. But I confess, at the time I really heard very little difference in the sound. However, I bought the Raven on faith and owned it for about three years. I recently sold it.

There were several reasons why I decided to sell the Raven. One was that I was moving across the country, and didn't feel confident about taking it apart and reassembling it after I arrived (although it really isn't difficult). Jeff had set it up for me at my house.

The other reason was that after three years, I still could not say unequivocally that I liked the Raven more than the Rega 25. I was searching for that elusive sound that so many said they heard, that feeling that the notes were sustained longer with the Raven. I frankly didn't know what they were talking about.

I decided to order a Rega RP6 to see how it compared with the Raven. Though I did not do any scientific tests, one against the other, I found that I liked the sound of the Rega every bit as much as the Raven. No doubt, the Raven and the Graham Phantom B44 tonearm were much better machines, both beautifully designed and constructed. I doubt whether anyone would contest that fact. In fact, for the money ($6500 without tonearm),the Raven was a terrific bargain. But after all was said and done, I had to admit, I could not hear much of a difference.

I don't doubt that many here would say that the rest of my system was not up to par.I had a Rogue 90 amp and 99 preamp and Definitive tech Mythos St speakers. Also I used an MM cartridge the Clearaudio Maestro. I know many of you will say I should have used an MC or had better speakers or amps, that the rest of my system could not show what the Raven could really do. This could be true. I don't dispute it. Except that I do remember not really hearing much of a difference when comparing my other Rega at Jeff's.


So maybe it's me. Maybe my hearing's going- though I don't think so. Maybe I'm unable to appreciate the nuances in sound that the Raven should offer. Maybe I'm not very discriminating in a musical sense, though I have played the piano for most of my life.I'm not sure what it is. I only know that for me, the differences, if I heard any at all, were very trivial.

And so, with this in mind, I sold my Raven with no regret. At this point in my life, I just want to appreciate the music. Yes, I like a good sound but for now the Rega RP6 is enough for me.

Feel free to pummel me mercilessly! BTW, I absolutely deny anyone in my family works for Rega!

a.wayne

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Not sure what exactly you're getting at, but I'll guess you're looking for some systemic reason why I don't think the Nottingham table sounds that much better than the Pioneer.  I'm not really interested in exploring that.  Let's just say that I have been around audio for 40 years and understand very well what makes for a good sounding system.  The main reason I am not hearing much of a difference is because there isn't one.  That is not to say that the Nottingham is not a better turntable.  It is considerably better in terms of design and build, and slightly better in terms of performance.  Now, understand that what I characterize as small differences someone else might say are huge. 

.

--Jerome

Well , i for one would expect big differences from the different cartridges, Regardless of  the tables being used, then theres tracking differences between arms .

Jerome how far back are you listening from ur speakers ..? What are the differences  you hear between your digital setup and analog rig .. ?



jsaliga

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"Different" and "better" are not the same thing.  There are quite a number of cartridges that have very similar sonic characteristics.  Some are so close that they would be hard for someone to pick out in a listening test.  Others are pretty unique: like Koetsu and Nagaoka.

I have reached the point with audio where I don't expect anything.  I listen for it.   :wink:

--Jerome


mgsboedmisodpc2

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eclubow was the RP10 around when you purchased the RP6?  The RP10 cost is closer to the Raven

a.wayne

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"Different" and "better" are not the same thing.  There are quite a number of cartridges that have very similar sonic characteristics.  Some are so close that they would be hard for someone to pick out in a listening test.  Others are pretty unique: like Koetsu and Nagaoka.

I have reached the point with audio where I don't expect anything.  I listen for it.   :wink:

--Jerome

Yes different , never mentioned better, Very  different experience for me  with analog  TT, all my tables with different  Cartridges sound different , grado is much different in presentation vs Denon , same for Ortofon , same for Shure , etc,etc,

If you are not hearing these differences between tables and Cartridges I would be very surprised and suspicious of what your system is doing , maybe  your PP ,  Pre or both...

Regards