[TheChairGuy]

I'll throw Chris Hoff of BPT in this group.

Proven technology combined with low overheads and impressive selection of audiophile-oriented extras at prices lower than most competitors.

It''s tough to beat the lowest cost competitor in a business if they keep to their mission....as HP, Compaq, and others found in taking on Dell over the years.

Chris Hoff is changing the enjoyment - cost ratio for many.  That's makes him very influental in my book.

 

[earlmarc]

John, I have long held the view that MOST people (not all, thank God!) are buying audio by the pound, not by the sound. They want it for many reasons, but music is hardly ever No.1. Even here, on this list, people talk 99% of the time about new gear, most seem bent on discovering something new and revolutionary, rather than discussing music, recordings, etc. If that's so here, imagine what's it like out there, in the wilderness of the economy, where buy, buy, buy is the key word.

People buy thinking befo ...

DVV, I agree. I think much the marketing hype behind many of these new technolgies especially with the big companies is cash flow driven. Consider the introduction of SACD and DVD-Audio. Sony's sole intent for introducing SACD was because their royalties for Reedbook CD was coming to an end, therefore they introduced SACD as a new cash cow. What to me was really dissappointing about SACD was that Sony made sure that Reedbook CD on SACD players was exposed as a far inferior format. Thus, consumers believed that SACD was the new revolutionary digital format. Not true. The other big companies countered with DVD-Audio to stay in the game. So much marketing was spent introducing this format and a ton of positive reviews backed Sony's ambtions that alot of us were led to believe that SACD was the way to go.

Most of the smaller companies intially modded these players to discover their full potential. It took awhile before many of the smaller companies were able to produce SACD players. And those that did early on were very costly units. Here is a good example of the audio world being driven by the big guy and the little guy has little hope to compete.

[sturgus]

John Helig of Musical Design/ Musical Concepts is another thats been around a while. His products have always been quite good for the money.

http://musicalconcepts.com/

Sturgus

[DVV]

DVV, I agree. I think much the marketing hype behind many of these new technolgies especially with the big companies is cash flow driven. Consider the introduction of SACD and DVD-Audio. Sony's sole intent for introducing SACD was because their royalties for Reedbook CD was coming to an end, therefore they introduced SACD as a new cash cow. What to me was really dissappointing about SACD was that Sony made sure that Reedbook CD on SACD players was exposed as a far inferior format. Thus, consumers believed t ...

I have mixed feelings about SACD. On the one hand, it really IS a far better format, technically speaking, if by naught else then by virtue of the fact that recordings are made with far less fiddling around with the sound, which in itself must be good. Less between you and me as listeners and the original artist should by default be better than complex. What I've heard of SACD so far, it tries hard to live up to that promise, but as with any other new technology (including DVD-A), it takes time for it to ripen. So far, so good.

On the other hand, I totally agree with you that millions have been spent on the standards war between the SACD and DVD-A camp. In any shooting war, be it bullets or dollars, it's the small guys who get whacked. Who do they go for, one camp or the other?

And the semiconductor technology required to be able to cover both camps belongs to the big guys, until big time semiconductor manufacturers (AMD, PMI, TI, NS, SGS-Thomson, etc) can hop on board with their products. And when they do, more often than not, the manufacturing prowess required to implement their technology is usually beyond the reach of small guys.

Which relegates small guys to effectively tweakers. Their only choice is to perhaps buy in ready-made boards (decoders, multi channel decoders, tuner front ends, etc), and if they do, they end up in the middle size guy territory, never in the big time yard. They seem forever doomed to make relatively simple products, where "simple" applies to loudspeakers (where many buy in their drivers, quite a few buy in their cabinets as well, and are thus in fact assembling only, however their own designs, etc).

Ultimately, they are also doomed to follow the mainstream industry, because they are unable to create trends, just follow them and possibly modify them somewhat.

Cheers,
DVV

[KeithR]

The bigger question will be how many are around in 5 years.  That is the true test, no?

[rosconey]

WHAT ABOUT KLAUS

[DVV]

The bigger question will be how many are around in 5 years.  That is the true test, no?

Well, yes and no. But it is indeed a good question.

Some companies have made outstanding products, yet still went bust eventually - a good example that comes to mind is Cambridge Audio from UK. In mid and late 70-ies, they made some of the best integrated amps around bar none, but still went bust and are reincarnated today by the new owners. One will get you ten if you came across such a product from their golden age, you would be seriously tempted to buy it today on purely sonic quality grounds.

Others, like KEF for example, lingered on, always balancing between the extraordinary and the commercially successful, only to be bought out in the end.

That's the problem with one man bands, even if at some point they outgrow the cellar/attic/garage stage and turn into small manufacturers; all too often, they are locked to one person only, and with that person leaving, it all goes under one way or another.

The reason why it's not such a good question is because there's no sure fire answer to it. Some make it big, as in BIG - Mark Levinson, for example. He almost single handedly created the so-called high end in the early 70-ies, became a force to be reckoned with, yet was still forced to sell out to Madrigal, itself then forced to sell out to Harman International (which, by the way, is now winding down Madrigal, but not Levinson; divine justice?). So, in this case, he is not there (in the original sense), but he is there, only he isn't he any more.

Also, big and recognized names today may not be around any longer tomorrow. Two examples - Fisher (if anybody here even remembers them, and I hope to God somebody does, or I'm older than the Bible) and H.H. Scott (I could add Craig, Sherwood and a slew of others). There was time when you could pick up the phone and talk to Avery Fisher himself; then he was bought out by Sanyo, and where is he today? H.H.Scott made some DAMN fine products in his day, including a digital tuner way back in 1975 - yet he was also bought out, and effectively buried. Another true, great shame, because those guys knew what good sound was.

Saul Marantz sold out to Superscope, which at least tried to keep up the good name. Then they sold the name out to Sony, which didn't know what to do with it, causing the company to go through its darkest years. In 1984, as a part of the CD rights deal, Sony sold Marantz to Philips, and they resurrected the name, at least to a great extent. A year on their own in 2002, and in 2003 Marantz effectively merges with Denon.

You see my point? Security in buying big names is not necessarily any security at all, although in all fairness, with big guys you can count on somebody buying the name at least, while little guys go down and stay down, period.

So you see, your point is both valid and not necessarily valid.

And if I ever run across a Craig receiver, I will buy it and will devote time and money to restore it to its full glory - for glorious was its sound. I can't remember the model designation, but I have its picture in my head. I'll know it if I see it. And I won't be bothered by its having tone controls at all, believe me.

Ciao,
DVV

[vpolineni]

Chris VenHaus makes some damn good cables...

[tvr2500m]

I find this to be an interesting thread. I remember when Bill Conrad and Lew Johnson, Jim Winey, even William Johnson were tiny companies not knowing whether they'd survive. As someone else mentioned already in this thread, all these were small companies once. Yes they were. I took a chance and bought some gear from the fledgling CJ in the late seventies - two of those pieces I still own. Heretical! Buying old fashioned TUBED gear in the age of transistors.

In the last couple of years I've restarted my audio interest, which essentially had been dormant since the early-/mid-eighties. Warping myself to today, what suprised me most is the number of companies catering to the two-channel audio enthusiast, a market that's being squeezed hard by the forces of digital audio and home theather. Against these pressures there seems to be many MORE of these small companies than I remember there being 15+ years ago. And many of these companies were small - read individuals working from their kitchen tables. And they are doing interesting things.

I'm very interested in this market dynamic. I'm actively trying to become studied in it. The DVV mentioned that many small shops are relegated to the status of tweakers which the big company's labs do sophisticated chip and standards development that is, of course, far beyond the reach of the kitchen table. But even there, the "tweaking" is adding great value, hence the apparent success of mod shops, and around this new technology people are developing better sounding solutions, like elegant filterless DACs.

And there're other areas of audio where most of the big companies don't occupy a significant position, like high-end loudspeakers and amplifiers, and peripherals, like cabling and power filtering. In this sense, the big companies are largely interested, even relegated to, in mass consumer sales, producing a flagship products, most excellent like Sony's SCD-1 et al, as proof of concept for their standards which are intended to pay for themselves ultimately though mass consumer sales. Sony certainly isn't returning its investment in SACD R&D through the sales of the early adopter flagship products.

It's very interesting, this two-channel market right now.

- SJ

[hmen]

I'm looking at my main system and 3 names immediately come to mind:
Steve Deckert - Decware
Dennis Had - AES/Cary
Brian Chaney - VMPS

[DVV]

I find this to be an interesting thread. I remember when Bill Conrad and Lew Johnson, Jim Winey, even William Johnson were tiny companies not knowing whether they'd survive. As someone else mentioned already in this thread, all these were small companies once. Yes they were. I took a chance and bought some gear from the fledgling CJ in the late seventies - two of those pieces I still own. Heretical! Buying old fashioned TUBED gear in the age of transistors.

In the last couple of years I've restarted my a ...

Er, um ...? "The DVV"? Last time I looked, I was still a living creature, kind of breathing polluted air and tweaking myself stupid. I guess Imiglykos, semi-dry Greek wine helps me make it somehow. And Tabasco, of course, life in the universe is impossible without Tabasco.

As for the mass producers not being in the high end, I beg to disagree. One will get you ten that if the current masters of mass production, the likes of Panasonic/Technics, JVC, Sony, etc ever decided to seriously get into it, they would drive smaller guys right out of the business.

Why? Simple. They have the wherewithall (commonly known, as "dough", "bread", "moolah", "geld", etc), the research labs, the engineers and the manufacturing prowess to do it quickly, efficiently and successfully, from any but one aspect - their image. Would you pay $10K+ for a JVC? Or a Panasonic preamp/amp combo? Yet you are ready to dish out the bread for a Krell, Levinson, etc.

Precisely what keeps them in the game now is what speaks lodest against any such effort they have or may make. Let me remind you that all of them, bar none, have at one time or another actually tried for it, and all of them, ALL of the, failed more or less miserably. Just as most high enders who tried to get into the mid section of the market also failed miserably.

That's like asking people who make Yugos to make a Cadillac, and asking the Cadillac people to make a Yugo. Each can do what's asked of him, but neither would be competitive. The big car version of the Yugo would cost more than it offers, and would soon die. The small Cadillac would be technically better made than any of its competitors, but would end up costing far too much to be anything but a joke in that segment.

So it is with audio companies. For years, Technics was showing around a hand made preamp/power amp combo, with laser trimmed resistors, super duper components inside, and nobody knows if they ever sold a single combo. But it sure made them look good, because what it was really doing there was shouting - lookee here, we can do that, we can do that, ain't no big deal. So Joe Schmuck looks at it, is duly impressed, but since he can't afford it, he buys a garden variety receiver and goes home happy. And a few thousand more like him.

JVC (a subsidiary of Matshushita, who own Panasonic, Technics, Akai, JVC and a few more) also tried it, did reasonably well, but in the end, gave up. They just couldn't make the sonic grade when compared to specialist products in the same price bracket. Actually, they looked better than 99.9% of the high end, the problem was they didn't sound like high end, and at those prices, looks will carry you only so far.

What we can expect to happen is for totally new companies to start appearing, because sooner or later, the audio industry will take its que from the auto industry. Just as Toyota created Lexus, as GM created Saturn, as Daimler-Chrysler created Smart, each trying to hide their true origins, so the audio giants will start up small, dedicated divisions. And that may just help make the high end interesting again, because the high end is in dire need of truly NEW ideas, fresh thinking. Its' too stale and mouldy now. And we need it to start rocking again, because it's the high end which can and does drive the big boys to new fields, new ideas and truly new products.

Cheers,
DVV

[tvr2500m]

Er, um ...? "The DVV"? Last time I looked, I was still a living creature, kind of breathing polluted air and tweaking myself stupid. I guess Imiglykos, semi-dry Greek wine helps me make it somehow. And Tabasco, of course, life in the universe is impossible without Tabasco.

As for the mass producers not being in the high end, I beg to disagree. One will get you ten that if the current masters of mass production, the likes of Panasonic/Technics, JVC, Sony, etc ever decided to seriously get into i ...

DVV, I'm with you on the Tabasco...

Yes, I'm also with you on the assertion that the big companies could involve themselves in the high end market, and it is, just as you say, because they have the resources. They could also get in through acquisition, which has obviously been done before and not often very successfully. And, as you point out, there're many challenges to both the mass-consumer companies going upmarket, and the boutique manufacturers going downmarket.

The examples you call out of sub-brands are good ones. In the auto market, all the Japanese players made their market entry with lower-priced, high-volume, low-margin vehicles and worked their way up to higher-priced, lower-volume, higher-margin vehicles; all this led to openings again at the bottom of the market so a company like Kia could enter. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, and VW are all examples of this. For the US markets, Honda, Nissan, Toyota had to bifurcate their brands into Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus respectively. VW/Audi/Porsche cover their market spread with the two brands which share platforms to help amortize R&D costs.

In audio, I do recall the consumer brands making a run at the high end and failing. Remember the Kenwood Signature products, or the Sansui Definition Series (I'm selling a BA-2000 if anyone's interested; I loaned its partner CA-2000 to a "friend" and never got it back), or that interesting Class A amp from Pioneer, or those big Pass-designed Nak amps, the Technics pieces you mentioned, etc....  None of them were outstanding performers at their price. And CJ had it Sonographe line....

For the big players, I suspect that they're simply not interested. I've been there many times before in business. You've got 10 good ideas to pursue, but you know that your biggest returns are going to be to focus on the top 4, so you let everything else go for now.

They only produce items, as you mention, as showcases for their technological prowess in an area they want to show they've got prowess so that they can sell ultimately to the mass market.  It's why Dodge makes the Viper and the Neon SRT-4 or ACR Neon racing car. The halo effect. They don't expect to make money directly from the sales of these products, but from the other products these products help to sell.

Harman Interntional built their business by acquisition. I recently looked at their financial statements. They're running $2BB and have been growing year over year. Their balance sheet overall looked pretty healthy.

Interesting what you say about the need for efforts from well resourced companies to get things moving. I'm curious about this. I just am not sure where audio is going. I do think we've reached a point of maturity in many audio technologies, but where the next break through will come from and what it will be...? I'd like to figure this one out for myself.

Ciao,

- SJ

[DVV]

DVV, I'm with you on the Tabasco...

Yes, I'm also with you on the assertion that the big companies could involve themselves in the high end market, and it is, just as you say, because they have the resources. They could also get in through acquisition, which has obviously been done before and not often very successfully. And, as you point out, there're many challenges to both the mass-consumer companies going upmarket, and the boutique manufacturers going downmarket.

The examples you call out of sub-b ...

The big break I'm expecting, waiting for and praying for is that some of them will eventually get back to good sound as their utmost priority, aside from balance sheets, section "sales".

I know this sounds crazy, but my view is that the pursuit of true high quality sound somehow got lost along the way. That's not to say there's nobody working on it, but that is to say such folks are a definite minority, so minor that at this time they are all but inconsequential.

And it wasn't always so. Older folks will remember the 70-ies and the first half of the 80-ies, when companies REALLY tried to get better sound, pushed for it.

It may be just a coincidence, but it seems to me this got lost in sync with the appearance of the CD, or the digital technology. Digital made things "easy", and how true that was we can see today, when there are literally thousands of small outfits tweaking CD players, whipping them into shape.

The only thing for sure today is that you will pay taxes; heck, you don't even have to die any more, you can cryo yourself for both better sound and waiting for somebody to discover the elixir of youth.

Cheers,
DVV