[gprro]

Thinking about oiling a project xpression 2 bearing. Have been reading on another vinyl site, and seems like a bunch of conflicting thoughts and arguments about the subject. Almost entertaining to read the arguments. Is there something definite I can use that will be ok? Thinking about sewing machine oil, as I can find that easy and local. Don't even know if it needs oiling, but I'm getting it ready for sale, and want everything to be as smooth as possible. I used it for maybe 2-3 albums, and switched the cart over to another table. Seemed good then. It's been sitting for 6-7 months or so. Hope I don't bring the argument over hear 

[mfsoa]

I was wondering the same thing for my Pro-Ject Perspective Carbon and saw this:

http://www.sightandsounduk.com/Pro-Ject-Grease-It-Platter-Bearing-Oil.html

But my manual only says this about bearing oil:

Distorted or inconsistent sound from one or both channels:
Record player is connected to wrong input of amplifier, or MM/MC switch incorrectly set.
Needle or cantilever damaged.
Wrong r.p.m., drive belt overstretched or dirty, platter bearing without oil, dirty or damaged.

Not a word about type, quantity, frequency...

-Mike

[Wayner]

I use Slick 50 synthetic motor oil to lube all of my turntables. Others use Mobil One and other type automotive oils.

I suggest when you re-lube, to clean out the bearing to remove old oil and dirt that may have collected over a period of time. Then when re-lubing, use a Q-tip to put a light coat of oil on the platter shaft. Pouring gobs of oil down the well will do no good. This is about a once a year ritual around here.

I used to use sewing machine oil, but I have found Slick 50 does a better job.

Wayner

[BaMorin]

Thinking about oiling a project xpression 2 bearing. Have been reading on another vinyl site, and seems like a bunch of conflicting thoughts and arguments about the subject. Almost entertaining to read the arguments. Is there something definite I can use that will be ok? Thinking about sewing machine oil, as I can find that easy and local. Don't even know if it needs oiling, but I'm getting it ready for sale, and want everything to be as smooth as possible. I used it for maybe 2-3 albums, and switched the cart over to another table. Seemed good then. It's been sitting for 6-7 months or so. Hope I don't bring the argument over hear 

OK, no arguments from me. Just some simple background info on oils. What they will do, won't do, and might do. Motor oil is designed to have it peak lubricity at 165-185 feg F. It offers no increase in lubricity in a spindle well running room temperature at 33.3 or 45 RPM. What modern motor oils have that machine oils don't have is EP additives. EP stands for extreme pressure. Modern motor oils now employ Moly as the base EP. Nothing beats Moly for extreme pressure. That happens at the point of rotation. The bearing sleeve sees no EP. Viscosity and lubricity are not the same thing. Lighter weight motor oils have a higher lubricity than heavy viscosity oils. Heavy viscosity oils in belt drive tables increase rumble (in most cases). The tighter the clearance between bearing sleeve and spindle, the lighter the oil needs to be (in viscosity rating)
0-20 Mobil-1 for example, has a higher lubricity than 10-40 Mobil-1.
Some bearing sleeves in some tables had "plastic" sleeves that reacted to chemical additives, Early AR's Aristons, some early Linn etc. where a very specific oil was needed. In tables that have a bronze sleeve and a 304 Stainless spindle, any 10W-20w oil will work. Synthetic oils out-gas less than "standard oils". That out-gassing affects the belt life in tables that have sub-platters. The more the oils out-gas the more often they need changed due to loss through evaporation and coagulation.  Basic train of thought.....if the oil stinks to be damned, you don't want to use it. $20.00 per 1/4oz magic foo-foo oils offer nothing above modern motor oils in lubricity or EP additives.

[Ericus Rex]

OK, no arguments from me. Just some simple background info on oils. What they will do, won't do, and might do. Motor oil is designed to have it peak lubricity at 165-185 feg F. It offers no increase in lubricity in a spindle well running room temperature at 33.3 or 45 RPM. What modern motor oils have that machine oils don't have is EP additives. EP stands for extreme pressure. Modern motor oils now employ Moly as the base EP. Nothing beats Moly for extreme pressure. That happens at the point of rotation. The bearing sleeve sees no EP. Viscosity and lubricity are not the same thing. Lighter weight motor oils have a higher lubricity than heavy viscosity oils. Heavy viscosity oils in belt drive tables increase rumble (in most cases). The tighter the clearance between bearing sleeve and spindle, the lighter the oil needs to be (in viscosity rating)0-20 Mobil-1 for example, has a higher lubricity than 10-40 Mobil-1.

Has anyone experimented with using a drop of heavy oil with an EP additive and then using a lighter oil on top of it?  It seems this could put the right kind of lubrication (EP lubrication) at the point of the spindle and a more suitable lubrication at the bearing sleeve.

[BaMorin]

Has anyone experimented with using a drop of heavy oil with an EP additive and then using a lighter oil on top of it?  It seems this could put the right kind of lubrication (EP lubrication) at the point of the spindle and a more suitable lubrication at the bearing sleeve.

Yes, kind of.  I impregnate my thrust plate and ballend of my spindle with pure Molybdenum.  On my original test bearing that has been under load since early 2007. It has a wear dot the size of this period ( . ) Under 200+ magnification that dot is a very shiny black spot that bears no original 1 micron crosshatch. Meaning the moly has been crushed into the metal. Moly will support 550,000 PSI before fracture.  (that's why its part of the alloy in top piston rings, ie ChromeMoly.  Spray-on (dry) black chain lube is Moly suspended in pure alcohol. Another source of high grade Moly can be found in auto performance stores as Cam assembly lube. What moly should wash off into the spindle well oil only aids in lubrication.

[Ericus Rex]

And then you use a light oil on top of it?

[BaMorin]

And then you use a light oil on top of it?

Yes, I coat the thrust plate and tip of the spindle in Moly. I use Royal Purple synfilm GT32 as oil for several reasons. First I was given an ample supply to try. Secondly it doesn't evaporate (read outgas) third, in every AR I've rebuilt it gives the longest spin down time from 33.3 (no belt) to dead stop.  I also use the same oil when re-setting the bushing on Hurst motors as it floats debris out of the bushing area faster than motor oils, and doesn't need to be topped off as often.  Still though the bottom line is the area that is of most concern is the point of rotation, and nothing is as friction free as Moly.

[gprro]

Nice info, thanks!

[jimdgoulding]

Yes, I coat the thrust plate and tip of the spindle in Moly. I use Royal Purple synfilm GT32 as oil for several reasons. First I was given an ample supply to try. Secondly it doesn't evaporate (read outgas) third, in every AR I've rebuilt it gives the longest spin down time from 33.3 (no belt) to dead stop.  I also use the same oil when re-setting the bushing on Hurst motors as it floats debris out of the bushing area faster than motor oils, and doesn't need to be topped off as often.  Still though the bottom line is the area that is of most concern is the point of rotation, and nothing is as friction free as Moly.

Where can a fellow buy this in small quanities?  Thanks.

[putz]

The guy who I bought my VPI Aries from swears by White Lithium Grease in lieu of the VPI Magic Grease. I know VPI also recommends using Slick 50 which Wayner previously discussed.

[Letitroll98]

The guy who I bought my VPI Aries from swears by White Lithium Grease in lieu of the VPI Magic Grease. I know VPI also recommends using Slick 50 which Wayner previously discussed.

The grease is used with inverted bearings, not with non-inverted single ball thrust plate bearings being discussed here which are lubricated with an oil bath.  Grease is used with the inverted bearing because, well, it's inverted, meaning the bearing is on top of the shaft and an oil bath won't work without pressure.  VPI recommends any normal light weight lubricating oil for it's older, non-inverted bearings.   

I agree completely with BaMorin, which is unfair because we discussed this at length elsewhere.  I use a lighter weight turbine oil (machine oil) with a moly additive, but that's personal preference, the theory is the same.  We both agree that lighter weight oils climb the shaft more quickly and provide more lubricity.  I would only add that this is a non-critical application and any good lube will climb the shaft wall and provide protection for your bearing.  The more important thing is keeping it sufficiently lubed and changing the oil regularly, once a year should be fine.   

[TheChairGuy]

On belt drivers with non-inverted bearings I had before...I had best results with TUFOIL.  I use in my car, too, with good results.  I buy the 8oz bottle - use the rest in your vehicle.

www.TUFOIL.com

However, as time went by and bearings of the decks bought were of higher quality...the effect with TUFOIL became muted.  To a point where the oil didn't matter much on the last VPI HW-19 Mk.III (that orthobiz now owns) when I upgraded to the best non-inverted bearing VPI offered for it.

Likewise, over the past 20 years since I first used on my 1991 VW GTI...it now has almost no noticed affect on motors.  It notable tamed down my 91 GTI and 92 Honda Accord..my wifes '88 VW Cabrio and my '99 SAAB.  But, it doesn't get me better mileage, lower operating temps, calmer engine sounds on our '04 BMW or '08 SAAB.  The cylinder and pistons on modern cars seem to be of such high quality that super duper slippery lubricants seem to matter less.

I don't know the Pro-ject Carbon....but you might try the best you can (I've also tried Lubro-Moly, a German lubricant endorsed by BMW, VW and others, and on the last upgraded VPI - didn't make a whit of difference from 5-30W oil used to compare it to (and Singer Sewing Machine Oil, and a coupole others I compared to it).

On my current VPI Classic (with inverted bearing) the quality of the bearing is so good nothing better plain old, cheapo, white lithium grease.  I tried moly grease, and a couple Teflon greases (including one revered by bicycle racers as the best and cost $25 for 2 ounces of it).  None bettered the white lithium.

Point is - try all you like - but if the bearing is of super high quality (whatever that is - hardness, tightest tolerance, uniform shape, etc) the type of lubricant will matter less and less.

[BaMorin]

Where can a fellow buy this in small quanities?  Thanks.

Hi, if you are asking about the syn-film........I dunno. I believe it comes in quart and larger sizes. I recieved that from a person who wanted me to try it and give my "educated' opinion on how it works in bearing wells........as i'm a part time AR builder.
Regarding moly, that can be found in small quantity tubs at auto parts stores, or spray on moly can be found at bike, and motorbike shops.  As Letitroll mentioned, and we agree here as well, any light machine oil works on the spindle as it is not under extreme pressure. My spray on Molycoat gets used a lot of places other than my turntables.  Most of my projectiles, and what "launches" them get coated with it also.

[orthobiz]

To a point where the oil didn't matter much on the last VPI HW-19 Mk.III (that orthobiz now owns) when I upgraded to the best non-inverted bearing VPI offered for it.

A new AC member has your platter/bearing now! I have the Classic inverted platter. There's less and less of your HW-19 left as it undergoes a gradual transformation into...well, I don't know what to call it. Will have to do a thread on it in the near future.

Paul

[Ericus Rex]

John-

Are you talking about sonic benefits from oil upgrades?  Or are you talking about benefits of reducing long term bearing wear between the lubes?

[TheChairGuy]

John-

Are you talking about sonic benefits from oil upgrades?  Or are you talking about benefits of reducing long term bearing wear between the lubes?

It's always about sonics with me, Eric....I don't have the measurement tools (or, perhaps inclination) to measure bearing wear.

Over the course of time and higher budgets, as bearing quality improves, the value of oil (or grease) lubricants fades I've found.

Perhaps even higher resolution systems than I have, or folks with more sensitive or younger ears, may still hear differences between oils and greases even on the priciest decks....but the differences are largely lost on my so long as the bearing is of high quality to start.

Ditto for auto engines.  The cylinder walls and piston surfaces, in an effort to wring out more fuel efficiency and horsepower, create less drag than ever before (that is, they are finely polished or coated with substances that create less friction). 

As mentioned, I've found a stark drop in benefit from using TUFOIL in each car over the past 20 years.

Don't let me rain on anyone's parade if you want to try all different types of lubricants in your belt drive decks...but the differences you will likely find are rather small. 

The super slippery moly or teflon lubricants might be better used on (often suspect) tonearm bearings than on main bearings with better results. I know that Frank van Alstine used to use a drop of silicone differential oil (10000 cst) on tonearm bearings of certain tonearms from the 70's and 80's to good effect - for friction fighting and I assume some measure of damping.  Getting in there and applying is often difficult, however.

[Wes]

I've also had really good luck using Tufoil, it was recommended to me years ago by a local dealer. I just purchased a 2 oz. bottle for $4.50 (but shipping was $5). It really quieted a somewhat noisy bearing on an old turntable I recently picked up.

Cheers,
Wes