[Tonto Yoder]

Dan,
Thanks for the update--hope the audition was worthwhile.

[Dan Driscoll]

Dan,
Thanks for the update--hope the audition was worthwhile.

Hi Tonto, thanks for letting me try the mat and thanks to Gary for throwing in the Panda feet. I'll eventually be posting some comments, but I want to let beat try them first, so that I don't influence his perceptions.

[Inscrutable]

Hi guys,
I was wondering what kind of tables you all have, and was too lazy to look up your systems.      Dan, IIRC you have an MMF-5, which I believe is non-suspended (similar as far as that goes to my Rega).  Does it use a clamp?  My Rega is clampless, and from what I've gathered sounds better that way.  Wondered about the effect of the mat vis-a-vis suspended vs non-s, and clamped vs clampless.

[Tonto Yoder]

My own table is a Nottingham Spacedeck, the non-suspended table that sits atop a reasonably heavy MDF base. Nott' favors mass--as one moves up the line or upgrades an existing model, the platter gets thicker and thicker.  Nott' even sells its own graphite "mat" (more like an upper platter since it's so thick) but   the stock Spacedeck comes with foam.

I've toyed with the idea of a Mystic Mat or a Boston Mat, which are carbon/graphite but much less expensive that the Nott' mat upgrade (which is $1200 or something ridiculous).  I DO use a clamp (though many people suggest the Nott' sounds better without).

[Dan Driscoll]

Hi guys,
I was wondering what kind of tables you all have, and was too lazy to look up your systems.      Dan, IIRC you have an MMF-5, which I believe is non-suspended (similar as far as that goes to my Rega).  Does it use a clamp?  My Rega is clampless, and from what I've gathered sounds better that way.  Wondered about the effect of the mat vis-a-vis suspended vs non-s, and clamped vs clampless.

Actually, the MMF-5 is a suspended split plinth design and it does use a clamp. However, the label recess on the AQ mat is pretty deep and if I spun the clamp too tight it would cause the outer rim of the album to bow upwards, so carefull attention was needed when setting the clamp.

I tried a couple of albums with and without the clamp, on some it made a difference, on some it didn't. In no case did the clamp cause a degradation of sound quality, although if I had over tightened it I am sure that would have caused problems.

[gary]

I've got a clearaudio emotion, here's a picture:

http://www.pandathumbaudio.com/download/Turntable.jpg

It doesn't come with a clamp, but I believe Clearaudio sells one as an upgrade. The price was totally out of line, so instead of buying it I had one of the machinists at work make me one out of a solid hunk of brass. It looks killer, but unfortunately I killed my stylus so I'll have to wait for the replacement to arrive before I find out if it makes a difference.

In my opinion, without a clamp the sorbothane mat doesn't do much good. The records I have just don't lay perfectly flat on it, and besides that it's just way too thick to be effective. Once my table is back up and running I may try another mat if I like the DIY clamp, if I do it'll probably be the one from Herbie's Audio Lab.

Gary

Gary

[beat]

Mine is that of a humble Thorens 125 with a stax tonearm. I hope to get back to working on my Teres soon. No clamp, just a weight. Given the weight I use, I couldnt use it with the sorbothane mat due to mechanical limitations..long story. so, I couldnt AB the mat clamped or not. I guess now that we have all played with it we could share impressions. I can see how Tonto would sometimes like the mat and sometimes not. I have been using the Platter Pad which is thicker and a the rubber used is a little harder. I feel that it sort of is the middle road between the sorbothane and no pad at all. So, I think it would be a nice thing to have around to play with sometimes but probably not for everyday...at least in my setup. The pandafeet are kinda cool. I like what they do under equipment actually. I had a hardtime using them under the TT because of my floating leveling pads. It was a trade off of being less than level with the feet or squished and awkward between the leveling pads and the deck. I liked them this way but it made the table VERY wiggly. The highs became more detailed and crisp. The mid and bass was largely unaffected. Under the CDP they were nice too and I like the feeling of pushing the buttons and experiencing that floatyness going on. Aside from that, everything from the digital source seemed more forward. I could say that the soundstage was deepened as well. Detail and crispness were mostly unaffected in my system... For the most part, when I am listening I am not sitting in the sweetspot 90% of the time if not more. So basically, I am not a 'hypercritical' listener. The pandafeet are surely a decent investment no matter how you look at it. I dont believe in spending hundreds of dollars on feet no matter what they are made of which is what makes these really cool because they do a great job. How much do you sell these for anyway Gary? they are like 30 bucks, right?

[gary]

Thanks for the feedback, beat, and I'm glad you like the footers. FWIW, I love the way the component 'floats' on top of them - this is just what they were designed to do. And, they're less expensive than that, 50% less as a matter of a fact. The cost is $20 per set of four, plus $3.85 for priority mail shipping (with free shipping on orders of three sets or more). Unfortunately I'm out of the blue firm footers for the time being, but I expect to have a new batch in by the end of next week.

Best Regards
Gary

[beat]

Gary,
I would love to have some to mess around with. I just made some footers in the variety of the floating bearing type. I know they basically only work on the 1 plane vs full suspension like yours but just wanted to check em out. Pretty nice, but..
Tonto,
I'll send this package tomorrow. In addition to the pandafeet that have coattailed this tour, I will add my coffee samples. I just roasted a couple days ago and ground it yesterday..so it is pretty fresh but IMHO is dying quickly (I'm like that) so expect it by the middle of next week. Thanks for the trusting generosity guys.
 
Beat

[Dan Driscoll]

OK, now that beat has played with the mat and the feet I'll throw in my $0.02 worth.

The AQ sorbothane mat didn't do anything good for my TT. The bass seemed a little bloated and the high end a little muddy when compared to my regular felt mat. It was not a big difference and I had to listen at fairly high levels, but there was a difference. Part of the problem may be that the AQ mat is almost 3 times as thick as my felt mat. If I had adjusted the VTA it might have improved the sound.

WRT the Pandafeet, it turned out I couldn't use them for the TT. The feet on an MMF-5 pivot about 30* omni-directionally and are taller than the Panda Feet. I tried placing them under the TT feet, but it was too unstable and it would have fallen off them. I'm not sure the Panda Feet would have made a difference with the TT anyway. The plinth suspension and the foot supports for the MM-5 already are sorbothane. The main difference would probably have been the rigidity of the 2 (or 3) types of sorbothane. The Panda Feet were stiffer than the MMF-5's feet suspension. I don't know about the plinth suspension, I didn't open the table to check.

I did try them under my CD player, but I'm not sure I heard a difference. However, my CDP is a 10 year old Carver SD/A-360 changer. This is a nice enough CDC, but I suspect its own internal vibrations (which the Panda Feet can't help with) are probably greater than any external vibrations it would have been subjected to.

I have to admit I'm a little surprised, I had expected and hoped to hear more of a difference with both products. The difference with the mat was small, but noticable, unfortunately it was somewhat negative. With the Panda Feet I just couldn't definitively tell you I heard difference, and I tried too. My wife even got a little annoyed with me for playing the same few pieces of music over and over again.  

A big "Thank you!" to Gary and Tonto, I appreciate opportunity to try these out.  I also appreciate a forum like AC that makes exchanges like this possible.    

[Tonto Yoder]

The AQ sorbothane mat didn't do anything good for my TT. The bass seemed a little bloated and the high end a little muddy when compared to my regular felt mat. It was not a big difference and I had to listen at fairly high levels, but there was a difference. Part of the problem may be that the AQ mat is almost 3 times as thick as my felt mat. If I had adjusted the VTA it might have improved the sound.

The reason I keep the mat is that sometimes the changes you describe CAN be positive (I wouldn't of course call the changes "bloated" or "muddy" in those instances).  Now and then, I run into a thin-sounding LP or two that the AQ mat gives a more musical balance: it's easier to throw the mat on the platter than adjust VTA.

Eventually, I play LP's where the bass does indeed sound bloated and the treble details are missing or muffled and the mat comes back off.  If one of the dogs decided to chew up the Sorbothane mat, I probably wouldn't replace it, but I'll keep it until then.

[beat]

A little off topic but,
what kinda dogs do you have T?

[Tonto Yoder]

beat,
I live in a fairly rural area where dogs are dropped off or run wild and reproduce, so all my dogs are strays and mixed breeds: one doberman-mix, one lab-mix and two sisters who are mystery mixes. The two sisters were the chewers who might well have devoured the AQ mat if given the opportunity.

[beat]

I hear ya about the rural thing,
it's sad to see them running wild but they usually end up being the best dogs in the long run. My most beloved dog was Soma, she was from a lab cross mother that really got around the Oakland (ca) area. Her litter (Soma's siblings) was from multiple fathers and the best we could figure is Soma was half Saluki. She was great, I didnt have to talk to her to communicate. Legend has it that Salukis are kinda like that, and man, she could run. I've also had a boxer-great dane, rhodesian ridgeback-lab, a weimaraner purebred, and now we have a couple dachsund chihuahua mixes that are sweet in their own right but when it gets down to it I like the bigger mutts. If it isn't obvious, I am not into cats and really miss my Somey. Best of luck keeping your mat, it is a nice thing to have for some recordings for sure.

[gary]

Hi Dan

Thanks for trying out the footers. FWIW, I have a pretty low-end Sony ES cd player in my bedroom system ($40 on eBay) and I can't notice a difference with the pandafeet under it either. One of the reasons I offer the no-questions-asked guarantee Also, if your player weighed less than the footers were rated for they might have had no effect, in fact they may even make things worse.

Gary

[Dan Driscoll]

Hi Dan

Thanks for trying out the footers. FWIW, I have a pretty low-end Sony ES cd player in my bedroom system ($40 on eBay) and I can't notice a difference with the pandafeet under it either. One of the reasons I offer the no-questions-asked guarantee Also, if your player weighed less than the footers were rated for they might have had no effect, in fact they may even make things worse.

Gary

Hi Gary,

The Carver is actually a pretty good CDC, when compared to similarly priced players from the same period. The thing is built like a tank and is one of the heavier non-boutique stock changers I know of. Mechanically it functions great and the sound quality is decent. Until recently I would have said the sound quality was very good.  But over the past few years I've upgraded my amp, speakers and am currently playing with preamps. So now the CDC is unquestionably the weak link in my system. and I do plan to replace it in the (hopefully) near future.

BTW, I've been saying the Carver was around 10 years old, but I just did a memory check and that's not correct, it is closer to 13 years. It has been my primary source component that entire time. Back then I don't think most manufacturer's paid too much attention to internal vibrations for digital components.

[woodsyi]

I recently acquired MMF-5 TT set up along with a lot of great records.  AQ Sorbothane mat was included.  So, I had a chance to use the mat on 3 different TT systems over the weekend and here is what I found.  On MMF-5 it really didn't  do anything.  On Oracle/SME/Koetsu, not a whole lot changed.  On Basis 1400/ Incognito mod Rega 250/ Benz Glider 2L, however, it made a huge difference.  It enriched music without bloating it.  Analytical and detatched sound turned visceral and connected.  Joni Mitchell went from a little shrilly to silky smooth soprano.  Loretta Lynn's twangs stopped ringing.  Johnny Cash -- well he can't go deeper-- his bass voice became tighter losing its raspiness.  It just made the whole sound more enjoyable.

What did the AQ mat do?  I don't know.  All I know is that it made a huge difference for the better.  Here are the facts.  Basis 1400 is a non suspended table with thick acrylic plinth and platter.  It comes with no mat but with a heavy clamp.  The turntable sits on a granite shelf on top of
a rigid rack.  I put 50 lb's of lead ingots on the shelf to make it as heavy and thus (hopefully) as inert as possible.  While I was adjusting the VTA I also set  the cartridge weight a little heavier then the recommended weight.  Eureka!  Something happened and everything just clicked.  

Any guesses at what happened?

[Dan Driscoll]

Here are the facts. Basis 1400 is a non suspended table with thick acrylic plinth and platter. It comes with no mat but with a heavy clamp. The turntable sits on a granite shelf on top of a rigid rack. I put 50 lb's of lead ingots on the shelf to make it as heavy and thus (hopefully) as inert as possible. While I was adjusting the VTA I also set the cartridge weight a little heavier then the recommended weight. Eureka! Something happened and everything just clicked.

Any guesses at what happened?

I'm speculating here, so this may not be worth much more than you paid for it.  

I'm guessing that since the mounting for the Basis is completely rigid, the AQ mat was absorbing some of the fairly minute vibrations that were being coupled through the floor. It may also be damping some motor vibration.

BTW, I would back off the stylus force to the recommended range. Excessive force causes significantly increased needle and record wear. Also, it is probably affecting the sound, a heavy tip can't respond as quickly, particularly to the small high frequency bumps in the grooves.

[Tonto Yoder]

 On Basis 1400/ Incognito mod Rega 250/ Benz Glider 2L, however, it made a huge difference.  It enriched music without bloating it.  Analytical and detatched sound turned visceral and connected.  Joni Mitchell went  ...

That's how I often felt with the AQ mat on my Nottingham table/ Origin live Rega 250/Clearaudio (also a non-suspended TT).. Eventually, I missed detail and went back to a foam or felt mat.  Wonder if some of your situation could be due to using a MC cart (whose strength or weakness COULD be their detail)???

[woodsyi]

Dan,  

I think you are right about damping some vibrations.  It can't be the motor since it is physically separated from the table.  I think it has to be between the record and the acrylic platter.  Even with the clamp most records don't sit perfectly flat and there must be some shaking going on without a mat.  I wonder why Basis does not come with a mat.  I am going to experiment with the rubber mat that comes with MMf-5 on the Basis and see how it compares with AQ sorbothane mat.  I will get the weight off the cartridge.  Thanks for the advice.

Tonto,

I have yet to hear diminishing detail but it's only been two nights.  If I had to guess now,  I would say there are more details with the AQ mat rather than less.   This TT set up has always been very good with details and AQ mat has not taken any of that away.  Low output MC may have something to do with it.  I think this may be one area where getting a low output  MC pays off even with having to get a stepup transformer.