[ckimmelshue]

I should clarify here.  The room posted above is the dealer's room, not mine.  I posted that to show the large space behind the listener that is more open than my space.  In the room above, the Mani-2s pressurize the room and have that "oomph" that I'm looking for. 

I'll post photos of my room next to help give a visual on my space. 

Thank you again for all the replies everyone.  What a great community we have here. 

[*Scotty*]

From the picture of the Dealers show room it is self evident why they sounded good, the bass energy was trapped in the room with you so it was possible to get acceptable performance from only two 6.5in. woofers in that room.
 I don't want to pessimistic here but if you have a conventional wooden frame house with a suspended floor above a basement it is highly unlikely that you will ever achieve the bass performance in your home from these speakers that you heard in the dealer's show room.
 You are trying to achieve good bass performance below 100Hz with a total cone area equivalent to one 8in. woofer in a nearly 3000 cu.ft. volume. I wouldn't expect two 8in. woofers to do an adequate job under these circumstances.
 I would be looking at speakers with two 10in. woofers and ideally two 12in. woofers to easily fill the room with bass energy and allow for placement far from room boundaries for the best imaging with good bass. The smaller the woofers are the closer the speakers must be placed to the walls for
boundary reinforcement of the bass region and as you have noticed the imaging can suffer if the speakers are placed too close to room boundaries.
I am filling a roughly 4400cu.ft. space with bass to below 20Hz with loudspeakers that have two 12in. woofers per side, peak sound pressure levels above 105dB are possible. I have frame walls and a concrete ceiling and floor. Excess bass loading was avoided by placing my speakers in front of the windows which form a 15ft. section of one wall in my living room.
Good luck with this quest.
Scotty

[doug s.]

From the picture of the Dealers show room it is self evident why they sounded good, the bass energy was trapped in the room with you so it was possible to get acceptable performance from only two 6.5in. woofers in that room.
 I don't want to pessimistic here but if you have a conventional wooden frame house with a suspended floor above a basement it is highly unlikely that you will ever achieve the bass performance in your home from these speakers that you heard in the dealer's show room.
 You are trying to achieve good bass performance below 100Hz with a total cone area equivalent to one 8in. woofer in a nearly 3000 cu.ft. volume. I wouldn't expect two 8in. woofers to do an adequate job under these circumstances.
 I would be looking at speakers with two 10in. woofers and ideally two 12in. woofers to easily fill the room with bass energy and allow for placement far from room boundaries for the best imaging with good bass. The smaller the woofers are the closer the speakers must be placed to the walls for
boundary reinforcement of the bass region and as you have noticed the imaging can suffer if the speakers are placed too close to room boundaries.
I am filling a roughly 4400cu.ft. space with bass to below 20Hz with loudspeakers that have two 12in. woofers per side, peak sound pressure levels above 105dB are possible. I have frame walls and a concrete ceiling and floor. Excess bass loading was avoided by placing my speakers in front of the windows which form a 15ft. section of one wall in my living room.
Good luck with this quest.
Scotty

scotty, the o.p. has a serious problem that isn't being addressed so far by anyone's comments.  first he stated:

"...Using the same electronics and speaker positions my older Quad 11Ls (5" woofer, 1" fabric tweeter) produce very palpable bass..." 

also, he says his dealer's room, that he showed pictured, has at least as much open space as his listening room.

there is no way his older quad 11l's should outperform totem mani-2's in the bass department in his room.  while suggested bass traps might help, it still doesn't explain this.  while speakers such as you suggest may also help, it also still doesn't explain this.  something is wrong w/the speakers, or the amp, or the speaker-amp combo.

doug s.

[Blackmore]

Since that shot sure looks like St. Louis Stereo, maybe one of the GAS guys could come over and bring another amp to see if that changes anything.  Where are you in St. Louis? 

Did you buy the demo speakers from Charlie or were they new out of the box?   

I'm free this weekend if you live close to the 'Lou.   Let us know if we can help

[ckimmelshue]

Since that shot sure looks like St. Louis Stereo, maybe one of the GAS guys could come over and bring another amp to see if that changes anything.  Where are you in St. Louis? 

Did you buy the demo speakers from Charlie or were they new out of the box?   

I'm free this weekend if you live close to the 'Lou.   Let us know if we can help

That is indeed St Louis Stereo.  I purchased from Mike and Charlie.  I'm located in Nashville, TN.  They came down and helped setup the turntable and play with the room configuration (we moved the Totems every which way to find the best sound) for hours.  We did have an immediate lack of bass in the beginning only to realize one of my speaker cables had been terminated wrong (they have rectified this).  We settled on a position similar to where they are now, but I've been left wanting.

I reached out to Totem and I have their attention now.  I'm putting in a call this afternoon to speak with the owner's son for help on setup (you have to love this level of customer service).  Totem is adamant that these Mani-2s with my current amplifier should pressurize the room well. 

I really appreciate your want to help.  You're more than welcome to make the trek to Nashville if you so desire.  We have serious dearth of hi-fi shops down here. 

[ckimmelshue]

scotty, the o.p. has a serious problem that isn't being addressed so far by anyone's comments.  first he stated:

"...Using the same electronics and speaker positions my older Quad 11Ls (5" woofer, 1" fabric tweeter) produce very palpable bass..." 

also, he says his dealer's room, that he showed pictured, has at least as much open space as his listening room.

there is no way his older quad 11l's should outperform totem mani-2's in the bass department in his room.  while suggested bass traps might help, it still doesn't explain this.  while speakers such as you suggest may also help, it also still doesn't explain this.  something is wrong w/the speakers, or the amp, or the speaker-amp combo.

doug s.

This has been my point all along.  If the "holes" in the room are the issue then why does the main room at the dealer (with a much larger hole) sound better?  These Quads are fine speakers (now relegated to the office system), but not in the same league as the Totems. 

[bmckenney]

You might want to try the Cardas speaker placement calculations.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

It's based on room width, and for your room the speakers should be 82 inches from the front all and 50 inches from the side wall.  I'd start with that.  And then try different listening positions. 

In my room which has one open foyer entrance at the listening position end on the right side, I have to have the listening position (chair) just ahead of the opening.  By that I mean my chair is not perpendicular to the opening.  It is forward of the opening so I have a wall structure beside the chair (on both sides), not an opening.  I get better dynamics and overall energy with that wall beside me.  A foot backwards and with the opening beside me is not as good at all.  I'm not sure if this is directly related to the room boundary related to the chair, or if it's just the position of the chair in the room period.  Anyway, I would consider where your chair is relative to room openings and use the Cardas math for distance from the front wall and adjust that distance according go where your listening position is.  I think your listening position could be more important than the distance from the front wall given you have openings to deal with.  But do try and get the speakers as far out in to the room as Cardas math suggests.  I find that is key to getting great 3D wall of sound with great room energy and dynamics.

As for bass traps.  I am not an expert, but I would think they will clean up and flatten out your bass (and mids etc) response for the better, but I don't think they would give you the bass you're missing right now.  I do use bass traps and really highly recommend using them.  Corner bass traps like from GIK at a minimum. 

I don't think this will make a huge difference, but it might.  At least it will make some difference.  I found when I used box monitors on stands, the amount of shot or sand I loaded in the stands made a significant difference in sound, including bass response. 

And another big thing related to bass response is the type of floor.  This was already mentioned by another poster.  My rule of thumb is if you have a concrete pad underneath, you should spike the stands to the pad.  If you have a suspended wood floor, do not spike.  Spiking to a suspended floor gives a washed out undefined bass because the bass energy is transferred to the floor and it will vibrate the wood and basically vibrate the whole room.  If you have a suspended floor, try using something that decouples. 

I'd be interested if Totem brings up the floor type and coupling/decoupling and also how much sand to load in the stands.

[jtwrace]

How about doing some room measurements to see what you really have?

All you need is an inexpensive Radio Shack SPL Meter and this from Real Traps.  http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm

Of course you can get fancy but this will give everyone a really good idea of what you have.  If you want you can PM me the data and I'll make the Excel graph unless you know how.   

[poseidonsvoice]

How about doing some room measurements to see what you really have?

You beat me to the punch JT. All this conjecturing could be put to rest with some measurements. I feel bad for the OP, he has already gone through a lot. And with a pair of speakers that are $4K and are known in the commercial dealer world for lots of bass. At least the Stereophile review confirms it.

Anand.

[doug s.]

You beat me to the punch JT. All this conjecturing could be put to rest with some measurements. I feel bad for the OP, he has already gone through a lot. And with a pair of speakers that are $4K and are known in the commercial dealer world for lots of bass. At least the Stereophile review confirms it.

Anand.

wow, everyone is still missing ckimmelshue's point.     let me try it again; ckimmelshue's said:

"...Using the same electronics and speaker positions my older Quad 11L's (5" woofer, 1" fabric tweeter) produce very palpable bass..." 

all the measuring in the world, all the set-up in the world, to cardas  speaker placement calcs., etc., does not explain what's happening here.  the mani-2's are noted for good bass response.  no way the quad 11l's will outperform them in the same room w/the same speaker location, if the mani-2's and its amp are working correctly.  NO WAY.  sure, the mani-2's are a demanding load.  here's specs for the amp being used:

the dsi200 delivers 200wpc continuously into an 8 ohm load, 400+wpc dynamically into 8 ohms, and 800+ dynamically into 4 ohms.

once again, something is wrong w/the gear, or how it's hooked up...

doug s.

[bmckenney]

How about doing some room measurements to see what you really have?

All you need is an inexpensive Radio Shack SPL Meter and this from Real Traps.  http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm

Of course you can get fancy but this will give everyone a really good idea of what you have.  If you want you can PM me the data and I'll make the Excel graph unless you know how.   

Measuring frequency response with test tones and an SPL meter is going to tell him something, yes.  But will it tell him something that will help him figure out what the problem is and how to correct it? 

I'm not an expert but have used an iPhone (model with a good mic) SPL app and the real traps test tones and all it really told me was I had bass build up along boundaries and especially in corners.  So I got some corner traps and a couple for problematic wall/ceiling intersections and that helped clean up LF and mids response and it was really my ears that I relied on to validate there was an improvement.  If the OP isn't getting the best response with the current setup, how would measuring with an SPL meter help him figure out what is wrong and how to correct it?  I assume he'll end up trying different speaker placements and remeasuring, but I would think he could tell how things changed well enough with just his ears. 

I get how he can get some data on all frequency ranges and a basic response curve with an SPL meter, but I don't understand what sort of process you would use for a case like this, to trouble shoot and fix the poor bass response he's getting using an SPL meter.  I would think he's still going to end up trying different speaker and listening positions and listening to the differences.

Bryan

[jtwrace]

But will it tell him something that will help him figure out what the problem is and how to correct it? 

yes.

I'm not an expert

Nor am I but science (in this case mics) doesn't lie.

I would think he's still going to end up trying different speaker and listening positions and listening to the differences.

Which you should still use a measurement device to get accurate data. 

[bmckenney]

wow, everyone is still missing ckimmelshue's point.     let me try it again; ckimmelshue's said:

"...Using the same electronics and speaker positions my older Quad 11L's (5" woofer, 1" fabric tweeter) produce very palpable bass..." 

all the measuring in the world, all the set-up in the world, to cardas  speaker placement calcs., etc., does not explain what's happening here.  the mani-2's are noted for good bass response.  no way the quad 11l's will outperform them in the same room w/the same speaker location, if the mani-2's and its amp are working correctly.  NO WAY.  sure, the mani-2's are a demanding load.  here's specs for the amp being used:

the dsi200 delivers 200wpc continuously into an 8 ohm load, 400+wpc dynamically into 8 ohms, and 800+ dynamically into 4 ohms.

once again, something is wrong w/the gear, or how it's hooked up...

doug s.

I do know of one similar case like this, with minimal bass, and it was equipment related.  An Oppo DVD source had line outs with a programmable setting for LF in or out.  When inserted in an existing system the player was set to cut off the bass from the HT system it was in before, which resulted in some head scratching for a while, but eventually we figured it out.

Bryan

[*Scotty*]

ckimmelshue, if you have an iPhone you down load RTA Lite from the app store and it will give you a snapshot of what is going on in your room at the listening position.
The screen shot above is an snapshot taken of pink noise at my listening position.
If you can get this capability it will tell you a lot about what is going on in your room. The app is sensitive enough to show you the comb-filter effects that occur in the mid and high frequencies with minute changes in microphone position.
Doug, the Quad 11L is an active loudspeaker with separate amps for the woofer and the tweeter
and is not directly driven by his amp unlike his Mani2s which are. This is apple to oranges especially considering that the Quad 11L are dB down at 3dB at 50Hz and don't really do deep bass unlike the Mani2s which reach below 30Hz.
Unlike the Quad11Ls the Mani2s do not gradually roll off the high frequencies. Room reinforcement of the lowest frequencies the Mani2 can produce will be required if a correct tonal balance is to be achieved to prevent the the Mani2s from sounding bass shy due to the presence of extended high frequency response. I am still unclear what the term "palpable" bass as used by the OP means. The Quad11Ls don't really have much output below 50Hz and would have less than the Mani2s in the same position in the same room. I think psycho-acoustic effects are in part responsible for the OPs reports of satisfactory bass response.
I am hoping moving the speakers to a solid wall away from the windows results in enough room reinforcement of the bass that it will balance out the top end.
Scotty

[ckimmelshue]

ckimmelshue, if you have an iPhone you down load RTA Lite from the app store and it will give you a snapshot of what is going on in your room at the listening position.
The screen shot above is an snapshot taken of pink noise at my listening position.
If you can get this capability it will tell you a lot about what is going on in your room. The app is sensitive enough to show you the comb-filter effects that occur in the mid and high frequencies with minute changes in microphone position.
Doug, the Quad 11L is an active loudspeaker with separate amps for the woofer and the tweeter
and is not directly driven by his amp unlike his Mani2s which are. This is apple to oranges especially considering that the Quad 11L are dB down at 3dB at 50Hz and don't really do deep bass unlike the Mani2s which reach below 30Hz.
Unlike the Quad11Ls the Mani2s do not gradually roll off the high frequencies. Room reinforcement of the lowest frequencies the Mani2 can produce will be required if a correct tonal balance is to be achieved to prevent the the Mani2s from sounding bass shy due to the presence of extended high frequency response. I am still unclear what the term "palpable" bass as used by the OP means. The Quad11Ls don't really have much output below 50Hz and would have less than the Mani2s in the same position in the same room. I think psycho-acoustic effects are in part responsible for the OPs reports of satisfactory bass response.
I am hoping moving the speakers to a solid wall away from the windows results in enough room reinforcement of the bass that it will balance out the top end.
Scotty

I will try this.

My Quad 11Ls are passive.  I'm driving them with the same Audio Research DSi200 (same cabling, sources, etc).

[*Scotty*]

My bad on the Quads, I didn't realize you had the passive version of the 11Ls.
Scotty

[ckimmelshue]

Here are the results of the pink noise test.  Measurement taken at my listening position and approximately where my ears would be. 


Here are some shots of my room:





As you can see, the totems are well out into the room. 

[*Scotty*]

This is a case where simple measurements don't really help. The bass appears to be here in full measure but you don't feel like it is present. I take it all back, this might work out alright after all.  I notice that your room is basically bare walls and the only furnishings are your equipment and your seating arrangements.
 You could use some diffusion on your walls as well as some absorption. You have a typical audiophile room dedicated to listening to ones stereo and not an ordinary living room full of furnishings,bookcases and the like. Untreated dedicated rooms are seldom satisfactory for very long.
 GIK makes both diffusion and absorption products,bpape is located in St. Louis and might be able to directly assist you with your problem.
I have an ordinary living room full of furniture with bookcases on every wall which is probably why  I am happy with the frequency balance I have.
Scotty

[bpape]

The results (though I wouldn't take for gospel the low frequency accuracy of the mic in an iPhone) don't show a drop at low frequencies. 

Also, from what I can see from the pics, the main difference between your room/setup and at the dealer is the proximity to the wall behind the speakers.  Yours are considerably farther out into the room yielding less boundary gain. 

Bryan

[ckimmelshue]

The results (though I wouldn't take for gospel the low frequency accuracy of the mic in an iPhone) don't show a drop at low frequencies. 

Also, from what I can see from the pics, the main difference between your room/setup and at the dealer is the proximity to the wall behind the speakers.  Yours are considerably farther out into the room yielding less boundary gain. 

Bryan

I have listened to the Totems at 1 foot, 2 feet, 3 feet, etc from the rear wall and it made little difference.