Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2

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past_or

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Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« on: 28 Sep 2011, 03:12 pm »
Hey folks! I currently am a happy 4BSST owner. The amp drives a pair of B&W 802 Diamonds (newest version) and is spectacular. I use a Marantz SC7S2 Preamp with it and am VERY pleased (as are my friends who love the Bryston sound). Here is where I need your input and suggestions:

First, I am assuming that I would noticed a difference in my system if I upgraded to the 7BSST's. Would you agree with this? Any 4SST-7SST upgraders out there who can testify?

Secondly, (and this is the main issue) I was approached by someone who has a good-as-new pair of 7BSST and is willing to sell them to me for quite cheap. Basically after I sell my 4BSST (which I have a buyer for) I need to only fork out $1500 for the 7's. I need to know if I am better off buying these, or spending the extra money on the 7BSST2's? Is this too good a deal to pass up on the SST's? There would be about a $4000 difference between the two 7's. What do you folks think?

I appreciate you help in this!

Diamond Dog

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Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #1 on: 28 Sep 2011, 04:10 pm »
Hi :  As far as adding power to your system is concerned, my experience is that you will hear and appreciate the difference, especially on speakers like yours. I've heard the same set of the speakers in the same room at the same listening levels powered by 140 watts per side and then with 660 watts per side and that sold me on having more power. Its not a volume thing as I don't really crank it up that loud. It's a sound thing...
As to whether the extra 4 large to go from SST to SST2 is worth it, ultimately it's your $$$ but to my ears there is not the difference between those vs. say 7BST and 7BSST2. If you're selling your dog to the local University to come up with the cash to make up the difference, sleep on it. Unless of course your relationship with the dog is similar to Tom Waits' on
 Frank's Wild Years. In that case, enjoy your new SST2's !  :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU-vNpmjfsI

D.D.

Mag

Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #2 on: 28 Sep 2011, 04:12 pm »
Hi, I don't own 7B's. But I stated before that IMO I perceived I estimate about a 30% improvement between SST2 & SST. The tone is the same, the bass however has more vibe (articulate) better mid-range and smoother linear highs, better detail.

However IMO your source should be on par equipment wise, like a BDA-1, as well as pre-amp. Otherwise the improvement may only be marginal. 8)

BrysTony

Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #3 on: 28 Sep 2011, 04:29 pm »
A pair of 7BSSTs for $1500 is a great deal.  You can likely sell them at a profit should you decide to upgrade to the 7BSST2 at a later time.

Tony

Diamond Dog

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Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #4 on: 28 Sep 2011, 04:58 pm »
A pair of 7BSSTs for $1500 is a great deal.  You can likely sell them at a profit should you decide to upgrade to the 7BSST2 at a later time.

Tony

It's $ 1500 plus whatever he got for the 4BSST, Tony. There's a set of 2006 7BSST on Audiogon ( 9/10 ) right now going for $4295.00.

D.D.

Waker

Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #5 on: 28 Sep 2011, 06:55 pm »
As long as the 7BSSTs are not much older than your 4BSST, you are getting a fine upgrade for a good price.  For the question as to whether there is that much difference between the SST and SST-2 lines, ask, "Why was the SST-2 line introduced at all?" I hope not to persuade loyal fans to re-spend/upgrade on a frivolous marketing campaign. 

drummermitchell

Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #6 on: 28 Sep 2011, 07:08 pm »
And another set on Audiogon@3500,17yr. left on warranty.
I've always like my SST upgrades 4's 7's ...............28's.
You might always wonder about are the SST2 more musical than my sst's and then upgrade again,
The ball's in your court,time to SQ.off :duh:..

BrysTony

Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #7 on: 28 Sep 2011, 08:05 pm »
It's $ 1500 plus whatever he got for the 4BSST, Tony. There's a set of 2006 7BSST on Audiogon ( 9/10 ) right now going for $4295.00.

D.D.

 :duh:  I didn't pick up that.  Still don't understand the numbers though.  There should not be $4000 difference between a pair of 7BSST and 7BSST2.  The Audiogon blue book average price difference is $1680.  :scratch:

Tony

srb

Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #8 on: 28 Sep 2011, 10:14 pm »
:duh:  I didn't pick up that.  Still don't understand the numbers though.  There should not be $4000 difference between a pair of 7BSST and 7BSST2.  The Audiogon blue book average price difference is $1680.  :scratch:

If not $4000 difference, the Audiogon asking prices seem to be at least $3000 difference.  There is also a 3-year old pair of 7BSST listed for $3500.  They belong to a retired gentleman who cannot use them in an assisted living center.  A little sad (although understandable), but I'm sure I could be happy with a B100SST if faced with similar living arrangements!
 
Steve

DaveNote

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Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #9 on: 1 Oct 2011, 08:24 pm »
Tough decision. A long time ago, I had a 4B and a 4BST. I recently upgraded from 7BSST to 7BSST Squared. I run PMC MB2i speakers, together with other Bryston gear (Preamp, BDA, BDP). With this setup, the Squared model created a great improvement in just about every way. Everyone is different in terms of how much they are willing to fork out for improvements in audio upgrades. If I were confident that I could get a pair of 7BSST Squared amps in perfect condition, and knowing as I do how much better they are than the 7BSSTs, I would think of $4000 as a bargain. Why? New 7BSST Squared amps cost about $10000. When I checked out prices online and through dealers, the best I could get on the 7BSST amps would have meant paying, net, for new 7BSST Squared amps would have been between $6-7000. Hope this is of help.

Dave

whatsthisone

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Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #10 on: 3 Oct 2011, 05:14 am »
My conclusion in that the 4bsst is likely sufficient, and it is based on my real world experience.  I have actually had at the same time, 2 sets of Energy Veritas (one set Veritas 2.4’s and one pair Veritas V-6.3’s (well I admit, I really owned 2 pair of V-6.3’s, but sold one NIB) running from my BP20 at the same time.  One set of speakers was using the 7bsst’s, and the other was using the 4bsst.  One set of speakers was using RCA’s, and the other XLR’s.  I also changed which interconnects (Audioquest Vipers) were used with both.  Because the speakers are similar, I wanted to know if I could get similar results as people with stacked Advents report.  My conclusion is no!

In my opinion there was an audible difference from a 4bst to 4bsst, but the 4bst is still a really nice amp.  Better, I do not know, but I would go with different.  I really do not know if there is a real difference from the 4bsst to the 7bsst’s.  Sure it has more power, but at reality listening levels the power of the 4bsst probably is overkill anyway.

Why won’t the person with the 7bsst’s take them to your house and let you listen to them? :scratch:
« Last Edit: 9 Oct 2011, 03:20 am by whatsthisone »

JohnnyGuitarWhatson

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Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #11 on: 21 Nov 2011, 09:24 am »
It's been more than a month, looks like this thread has cooled down, but if the OP hasn't taken action yet I may be of some help. (In fact I just subscribed to be able to do so, so hi everybody).
If not, others may still benefit from what I found.
My contribution is not on the SST vs SST2 question, but on the 4B vs. 7B question.
Looking for an amp for my 802D, I found a Bryston dealer that was extremely helpful (I'm in the Netherlands: it was Jan Horstman from Holland Link Hifi).
I considered and listened to 4BSST2, which already proved to be a big improvement over the amp I owned then.
Then I considered vertical bi-amping with 2x 4BSST2. So Jan brought me a second one (he's about 150 km / 90 miles away; ok this story is not about Jan but some credit is due :thumb:).
The beauty of having 2 4BSST2 in your home is that you can bridge them and have more or less the equivalent of a 14BSST2.
In other words, you can compare the virtues of bi-amping to those of simply having more power.
At first the bi-amping sounded nice, but then I payed attention and checked output levels.
One of the amps had a slightly louder output (I think it was 1 or 2 dB) and if you put that on the mid-high section (I had to do horizontal bi-amping for cabling reasons), it came out on top in the comparison. Reversing the situation eliminated the advantage of bi-amping. So it was clear I was not going to spend my money on a second 4B in biamp configuration.
Next came the 2x4BSST2 bridged configuration. That was another story! Now the 802D's were starting to show their true potential. I started to hear things I had never heard before!
This led me to a test run of the 14BSST2 (I think this time Jan and I exchanged gear from the booths of our cars at some halfway meeting point ...).
Internally, the 14BSST2 is very similar to a pair of bridged 4BSST2.
(forgive me, you all know that of course, this is a Bryston circle).
It sounded better again than the bridged 4BSST2. I can't find my notes right now, but when I say better I mean the "holistic" experience of the music rather than some isolated quality of it.
So I ordered the 14BSST2. Then, thinking about some practical issues, and looking at the limited price difference between 14B vs 2x7B, I quickly changed my mind: without having heard them (this is where Jan couldn't help me), I ordered a pair of 7BSST2. They didn't disappoint me. I never did a head to head comparison between the 7BSST2's and the 14BSST2, but I immediately had the impression that dynamics were better from the mono blocks.
So, this concludes my story of how I learned to appreciate the value of dynamics in music reproduction! Since then, I can always hear when  a system is short on power. They often are...
No need to say (I hope) that all this is not just about playing loud.
Well maybe it's about playing loud without sounding 'loud' - to most people loud means distorted.
In case of undistorted playback you only notice it gets loud once you try to have a conversation ...
Nor is it about a particularly demanding kind of source material.
A solo grand piano or voice is all you need to demonstrate the differences.
(Yes, Santana 'Supernatural' tracks also do it  :D).
Bi-amping the 802D may still be a good idea, provided you start with sufficient power.
It would be 'interesting' to hear them on 4x7B.
But for me the interest would be academic: 'just' a pair of 7B's leaves me nothing to wish for.
(well, later on I tweaked my power lines and got some kicks from that but that's another story)
My gear: sonos ZP80+Benchmark DAC1Pre/Tentlabs b-DAC+Bryston BP26+7BSST2+802D
Interlinks Grimm audio TPM. Speaker cable Vandenhul Teatrack (biwired)

Hope this helps!

James Tanner

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Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #12 on: 21 Nov 2011, 11:04 am »
Welcome JohnnyG

Great input :thumb:

James


SoundGame

Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #13 on: 21 Nov 2011, 02:43 pm »
But for me the interest would be academic: 'just' a pair of 7B's leaves me nothing to wish for.

Good input JGW - it is interesting that it mostly came down to dynamics. 
 
Just a comment on this sentence - quoted from your post....
 
You need to demo a 28B-SST now vs your 7B's  :icon_twisted:
 
 

klao

Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #14 on: 21 Nov 2011, 04:28 pm »
Go for the 7B-SST/2; you won't regret it.
The faceplates look much nicer than the SST too.   :)

If Bryston is planning to launch the SST/3 series, I'll start skipping nice lunches and dinners tomorow without having to audition them!

JohnnyGuitarWhatson

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Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #15 on: 21 Nov 2011, 11:19 pm »
Thanks for your encouraging and welcoming words!

While I'm at it, I'd like to add something to my earlier post.
The OP uses the newer 802 Diamond.
I recall to have read somewhere that these are a bit more amp-friendly than the 802D.
This means your results may be different.
When it comes to amp/speaker combo's (or any gear for that matter), trust your own ears only!
Having said that, my results were so unambiguous that I'm pretty confident that the extra power will be appreciated by the newer speakers as well.
But, again, don't take my word for it.

Another addition - I haven't spent any words trying to characterize sound.
Well, of course it's all about realism, the "musical event in the room" phenomenon.
Stereo in the original meaning of the word!
One aspect/phenomenon I found I would like to share, though.
As the system gets better (no compression of dynamics), the "virtual image" of the performance tends to get smaller, from a bigger-than-life to an exactly-right presentation of dimensions.
This is related to another thing: once you get to this level of audio reproduction, there is such a thing as the "correct" volume setting.
(more clearly so with some recordings than others).
The volume setting is more or less like a "size control", a scaler if you will.
I think it was John Bowers, or was it the Quad guy, Peter Walker, who used to write down the volume settings on the his record sleeves?
On the other hand, the image also gets "bigger": the image of the venue, not the performer.
I guess you could say the direct and reflected sounds are more clearly separated, making the rendering of the performance more realistic, lifelike, 3D etc.
Distortion or dynamic compression muddles them together somehow, taking away from the realism.
Anyway, thats my two cents worth towards analyzing the effect of this whole power thing.

I'd love to hear if others have experienced the same sort of effects.

To hear a pair of 28B in my setup ... I'd love that of course!
I am curious, is there a point where power is enough and you don't hear the difference anymore?
I would think there is, but then still the question is where that point is.
From a theoretical standpoint, I was already surprised that bridging the 4B's made such a difference.
Bridging means you double the voltage, but not the current.
My expectation would have been that current, not voltage is the limiting factor in driving the complex impedance of the speaker system.
Maybe James can provide some insight on this?
What does the bridge configuration do other than adding up the output voltages of the two amps?
Or has this topic been covered elsewhere?


James Tanner

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Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #16 on: 22 Nov 2011, 12:40 am »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hi

Nice insights :thumb:

Bridging doubles the slew rate and quaduples the voltage.

What we have found over these many years though is that speaker loads are very complex beings and at some frequencies require huge voltage swings and at other frequencies huge current delivery. So it is more important that an amplifiers output stage be able to respond to these differing conditions instantaniously rather than be limited to one design direction over the other.

James
« Last Edit: 22 Nov 2011, 01:51 am by James Tanner »

Alfalfa

Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #17 on: 22 Nov 2011, 06:52 pm »
Very interesting comments, thanks!! Will we know the answer when the 56B SST6 hits the stores in 2029? Something tells me this is not going to be the case.

For now we can only conclude that 'you can never have too much power in hifi'.

Maybe I will find a nice set of used 28B's.... In 2029.  :icon_lol:

larevoj

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Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #18 on: 23 Nov 2011, 03:47 am »
Hmmm...do you folks think its a little overkill to drive a standmount with mono 7BSST2?

James Tanner

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Re: Guidance regarding the 7BSST vs 7BSST2
« Reply #19 on: 23 Nov 2011, 12:11 pm »
Hmmm...do you folks think its a little overkill to drive a standmount with mono 7BSST2?

What speaker?

James