[Levi]

I think Wayne's modified EE DAC is going to be hard to beat. 

However, a Wayne's modified EE DAC Plus is going to be something else. 

[Bill O'Connell]

I think Wayne's modified EE DAC is going to be hard to beat. 

However, a Wayne's modified EE DAC Plus is going to be something else. 

 We(Alex & I) have kindly and respectfully asked Wayne not to modify the DAC Plus.

[jtwrace]

We(Alex & I) have kindly and respectfully asked Wayne not to modify the DAC Plus.

Why?

[Bill O'Connell]

Why?

 Because Alex and his engineers like their efforts to be appreciated on their own merits and believe they don't need to be modified.
  What other companies would appreciate it? Maybe Rega,Schlit,Audio GD,McIntosh.
 We tried the experiment with the original DAC  and I had recommended to Alex that we let Wayne do his thing. I know I insulted Alex in doing this, and it has laid heavy on my heart ever since.
 
 

 

[wilsynet]

It's quite unfortunate.  I don't know of a legal basis to ask someone to not offer modification services, so what you're really doing is asking politely and respectfully (which is what you've said of course).  But now you're creating a confrontation and there really didn't need to be any.  It's a free country I guess.

I can imagine the reasons why it isn't desirable.  For example, it may be signaling to the market that the unit is built to a specific price point, that it isn't as good as it could be if only better parts or a better design were employed.  But everyone knows it isn't just great design, it's great design within time and cost constraints.

I wish the message was instead "We think that the MiniMax Plus DAC already sounds great and don't encourage people to modify it.  Furthermore, we don't authorize modifications and we don't honor the warranties of modified units".

Bill seems to have indicated his spirtitual blessing in this message:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=80555.msg774047#msg774047

I wonder if Wayne would have gone down the path of modifying the first MiniMax DAC if he knew that he'd run into an argument with the second.

Personally, I don't see why Alex should care if someone modifies it.  I doubt that Steve Jobs cares whether Wayne has a modified power supply for the Mac Mini.  Rather than think of it as "better" or "worse", I'd rather think about it as just "different".

Wilson

[Bill O'Connell]

 Believe me, confrontation is not anything I desire. Wayne can do whatever he wants, I just asked as politely as possible.He is a great guy and I have the greatest respect for him.

[jtwrace]

Because Alex and his engineers like their efforts to be appreciated on their own merits and believe they don't need to be modified.
  What other companies would appreciate it? Maybe Rega,Schlit,Audio GD,McIntosh.
 We tried the experiment with the original DAC  and I had recommended to Alex that we let Wayne do his thing. I know I insulted Alex in doing this, and it has laid heavy on my heart ever since.

Maybe Alex should look at it as a positive.  Someone wants to mod his equipment because they think it's a great foundation. 

I guess it just worries me when someone tries to control ones business.  I understand your position but at the same time Wayne is just trying to make a living.  Whether one agrees or not with the mod it's just the principal. 

[woodsyi]

I don't see how any company can control what a consumer decides to do after a product has been sold.  If I thought a Sony boombox was crap and smashed it to smithereens, what can Sony do?  They can refuse to replace/repair it because I violated their warranty conditions.  I would think that's all any company can do -- refuse warranty for violation of terms.  I would assume smashing it with a hammer or modding the innards would void the warranty with the manufacturer.  I don't think any company should be upset or prevent a third party to mod their product.  If the company thinks a mod is undercutting their profit, why wouldn't they do the same mod from the beginning and raise the price accordingly.  It is always a business decision to design and manufacturer a product to a price point.  If there is a concern that a third party modding can hurt the company, redesign it to include such mods from the first place and charge more.  There has to be a point where modding becomes unnecessary.  But is that the optimum model for business, i.e. profit margin?  If that is not the case and you have made decisions in circuit design and parts used to bring forth a product with the best QPR at maximum profit margin, I would say encourage third party mods.  Modders need a unit to mod after all.  Wouldn't that be a win win situation for both the manufacturer and the modder? 

[buzz]

Because Alex and his engineers like their efforts to be appreciated on their own merits and believe they don't need to be modified.
  What other companies would appreciate it? Maybe Rega,Schlit,Audio GD,McIntosh.
 We tried the experiment with the original DAC  and I had recommended to Alex that we let Wayne do his thing. I know I insulted Alex in doing this, and it has laid heavy on my heart ever since.

I can understand Alex viewpoint. The largest weakness of the original DAC was the volume control. Now that it has been eliminated in the Plus, a manufacturer would worry that loosing the ability to warrant a product hurts his customer relations. It is not worth the relatively small sonic advantages of modding the DAC+, at the cost of having alienated customers.

A solution would be if Wayne accepts warranty liability. Does he?

[jtwrace]

I can understand Alex viewpoint. The largest weakness of the original DAC was the volume control. Now that it has been eliminated in the Plus, a manufacturer would worry that loosing the ability to warrant a product hurts his customer relations. It is not worth the relatively small sonic advantages of modding the DAC+, at the cost of having alienated customers.

The manufacturer doesn't alienate the customer....the warranty is voided once any mod is performed. 

[woodsyi]

Because Alex and his engineers like their efforts to be appreciated on their own merits and believe they don't need to be modified.
  What other companies would appreciate it? Maybe Rega,Schlit,Audio GD,McIntosh.
 We tried the experiment with the original DAC  and I had recommended to Alex that we let Wayne do his thing. I know I insulted Alex in doing this, and it has laid heavy on my heart ever since.

Alex shouldn't feel hurt by the modders.  Like Jason said, you should feel proud that you produced a design that others feel they can improve with modification.  No one think Alex doesn't know how to make things better.  I am sure he can but he will also have to raise the price.  You will have to sell to a different market then.  You may gain some who would be willing to pay the price but probably lose a lot more in the original lower price market.  Everyone knows it's a business decision.  Plus, we all know that some of us in this hobby just can't let anything sit around in stock form no matter how good it is.   

[Gopher]

I agree it is a little unusual a request, although I would say it probably isn't THAT big a deal.  Unless someone wants the improved USB section (I kinda do) along with the modded sonics, they'd be better off buying a used first gen and sending it for mods anyway. 

From the man himself:

From what I have seen of the unit so far, it appears to be pretty much the same thing as the first gen, for modding.

It will be "better" for people who wish to use USB and for multiple inputs. Sonically, it should be very close to the first gen. I do expect some improvement with the separate transformers, but nowhere near the sound of a modded first gen.

Right now this is all blue sky. I have talked to Bill at Morningstar and I will get a chance to audition the new DAC+ whenever it arrives in the country. I will be happy to post my impressions of it at that time.

The new case that Lou is building for the first gen DAC should be able to be adapted to fit the DAC+. Most of the level one and level 2 mods should carry over to the DAC+. I'm sure there will be some variations, but not too much.

[munosmario]

From both legal and personal friendship angles, situation may be more complicated or delicated that it appears. According to the quote from Wayne below (from Steremojos' review of mod EE Dac), not only Bill and Wayne are good friends and treat each other with great respect, but there is also a confidentiality/non diclosure agreement in place, which we don't know what explicit or implicit limitation of use it includes (particularly with respect to the schematics EE provided Wayne with, I am sure the basis for the original DAC and the plus version). So if Alex doesn't want the Plus modified by Wayne, I believe Alex may have a bit of an upper hand here. Granted, some other modifier without frienship or legal constraints can do as he wishes and sell a Plus mod (of course, voiding manufacturer's warranty). Not much different than NewForce and Oppo collaboration with the mods to the 93, and Nuforce agreeing not to modify the 95...but latter remains open to other modifiers.

Wayne: "The EE DAC in stock form was very good. In looking inside at it, I saw some areas I knew could be improved if more money was spent on certain parts. I have known Bill O'Connell for a few years. I have exhibited with him at RMAF. He owns and uses one of my modded Logitech Touch and power supply. When I contacted him about modding the DAC he was very enthusiast about the project. He contacted Alex Yeung, the designer of the DAC and Alex was kind enough to send me the schematic after I signed a non-disclosure agreement. The first unit I modded was for Bill O'Connell. He was very patient while I worked out the parts selection and how to fit everything into the small space. Bill was also kind enough to provide another EE DAC that I could mod to a lower level to send out on tour. That tour is just about over now and the modded unit is available for purchase".

Munosmario

[buzz]

The manufacturer doesn't alienate the customer....the warranty is voided once any mod is performed.

I never said the manufacturer alienates the customer. The modder is who alienates the customer from the manufacturer.
So what happens to a customer of a modified unit that cannot get the DAC to sync with his MAC? If the unit were yet unmodified, Alex and Bill would be happy to warrant the product. And even though the mods had nothing to do with software sync, now the customer is alienated.

[Jon L]

I wonder if Wayne would have gone down the path of modifying the first MiniMax DAC if he knew that he'd run into an argument with the second.

That is an interesting question, as it takes tremendous amount of time and effort to develop and optimize a particular set of modification package for products.  If I knew beforehand that any modification sales would end with introduction of MkII, I am not sure I personally would spend the time in the first place. 

As far as a product "not needing" any mods, well, even a $50,000 product has room for better parts, especially for things like custom regulators, teflon capacitors, etc.  We are audiophiles.  We don't "need" to do any of this that we do.  We do it because it's exciting, fun, and possible, maybe even yielding better music 

[Bill O'Connell]

That is an interesting question, as it takes tremendous amount of time and effort to develop and optimize a particular set of modification package for products.  If I knew beforehand that any modification sales would end with introduction of MkII, I am not sure I personally would spend the time in the first place. 

As far as a product "not needing" any mods, well, even a $50,000 product has room for better parts, especially for things like custom regulators, teflon capacitors, etc.  We are audiophiles.  We don't "need" to do any of this that we do.  We do it because it's exciting, fun, and possible, maybe even yielding better music 

 No product is perfect and ours is not the exception, you can always find something to do to make it better.

[Wayne1]

I am not sure what brought on Alex and Bill's change of mind about the mods, but for the most part, I will honor their request. I do have one customer who I promised I would mod their DAC Plus if so requested.

I have spent quite a bit of time and energy developing the mods. Bill has been very supportive during that time. I was hoping to be able to take my experience with the circuits and offer my variations on the DAC Plus. I guess that is not to be.

I do think there have been some questions raised about mods, modders, and manufacturers that should be addressed. A thread about reviews of a product is not the place for that. I do hope someone will start a thread on this topic elsewhere on this site where it might be able to get more input on opinions.

[Wayne1]

Thanks for starting this topic.

Many people are looking for a piece of audio gear that delivers 90% of the sound of ultra high end gear for a lot less money. There are a lot of products out there that offer good circuit design but use lower quality parts or take a few shortcuts to bring the item in at a certain price point.

There are certain "mods" that seem to be okay with most manufacturers. Tube rolling is accepted and almost anticipated. Why is changing an integral part of a circuit such as a tube okay, but changing a coupling capacitor warranty voiding? Is it because anyone is able to plug and unplug a tube and soldering is a skill that everyone doesn't have? What about op-amp swapping?

Is parts swapping (using the same values but different designed parts) acceptable but changing the values unacceptable?

[Bill Baker]

We have been modifying audio gear since the mid 90's under the Response Audio name. There are a few products that I receive a lot of inquiries about modifying and the first thing I do is contact the manufacturer or distributor to find out what the policies are.

A few manufacturers said they did not want anyone modifying their product so I respectfully declined to produce a modification and/or upgrade for the product.

Developing modifications or upgrades for a product is a time consuming process (to do it right) and if this is done prior to obtaining authorization for the manufacturer, a lot of time and money goes out the door.

I did in fact contact Bill O. about working with the EE gear some time ago. Long story short.....he mentioned he preferred I did not. End of story and I have never touch a piece of EE gear. This type of work requires an aggrement and commitment on both sides for it to be beneficial.

In regard to warranties, I have always assumed responsibility for any piece of gear I touch. Most manufacturers I worked with stood behind their product within the warranty period as well if the problem was not associated with the upgrade/modification.

This post is not a modification service ad as I am working on getting away from this type of work.

[JLM]

I've owned a few modded pieces (and still do).

Obviously there's a risk involved of getting a hack job (especially when dealing via internet and shipping) with otherwise unknown parties.  I bought two pieces from an AC sponser who did good sounding but poorly built work which suffered damage twice from shipping.  Several here complained privately to me of poor workmanship from this vendor after seeing my fustration posted of not receiving the level customer support I thought should have been reasonable. 

The modded pieces I've held onto provided stellar sonic results.  One was downright cheap (and fairly unknown), the other was fairly expensive (but I sort of pushed the mod onto him and it provided world class sound).