[Bigload]

I keep tinkering with my new VPI Classic 1 trying to get everything just right.  Starting to think that is like playing golf.  It can always get better and no matter how you do, you just know you need to keep working on it!

I have a digital scale and a fozogometer and have used them with good results.  However, I am getting hung up on the anti-skate adjustments.  I am using the Hi-Fi News Analogue Test LP.  Side one has 4 tracks that deal with anti-skate at progressively higher amplitudes....tracks 6,7,8 and 9.  Leaving the anti-skate mechanism disconnected and simply relying on the tonearm wires to apply a slight anti-skate force (recommended by VPI) produces the worst result...lots of distortion and buzzing.  I can hook up the mechanism and experiment with differing amounts of weight to get my Benz Micro Glider SH to track the first 2 tests perfectly with zero distortion.  The 3rd track just starts to indicate some very slight buzzing in the right channel.  The 4th track... forget it.  It derails the train every time, no matter what I do, it will not stay in the groove at all.

Are my expectations here too high?  I have to admit that it does sound incredibly good as is.  Just wondering what I should expect as it relates to this test and anti-skate calibration using this test LP.  As always, appreciate any advice or comments.

[twitch54]

Hey Big...........first off let me say test records can be a PIA. I have a similar set up (Aries III, 10.5i, Glider SM) I utilize the VPI anti skate with one rubber o-ring and the mono-filiment set up against it at the closest position to the pivot point. sounds great to me.......as you said !

also keep in mind that I suppose uni-pivot arms like what we have can develop azimuth issues with too much anti-skate.

[Naun]

I'm pretty much a novice at this kind of thing, but my experience was very similar when I tried out anti-skate on my previous cartridge, a Dynavector 10x5, with the same table and test record. That is, I wasn't able to eliminate the buzzing on the third and fourth tracks. However, I didn't try very hard, since I soon decided that the sound was much better without anti-skate.  I don't recall now how it did without the anti-skate device hooked up.

I recently changed to a Soundsmith Zephyr. Tracking at the recommended 1.8g with no anti-skate, the first two tracks play cleanly, and the third track buzzes momentarily in just a couple of spots. The fourth track is again a no go.

The sleeve notes on the test record do say that the fourth track is a "torture test" and that you should be fine with most records if your cartridge can handle the first three tracks.

[Bigload]

I am wondering if that 4th track is only possible for the extreme upper end equipment?? 

I think I currently have the monofilament line trapped down against the pivot point with an o-ring on top of it, and I have 2 o-rings about 2/3 of the way out on the counter weight arm.  That gives me the best tracking result I can get, at least according to the test LP.  I did then go back and re-adjust the azimuth with my new best friend...the Fozogometer.  And I also rechecked tracking force.  Everything is good.  I am just a little annoyed that I cannot get the 3rd track to eliminate every bit of distortion.... and I would like to be able to at least keep it in the groove on the 4th track.  But I guess that just may be a limitation of my current gear.  Oh well.  Still sounds awesome.  Thanks.

[BaMorin]

I keep tinkering with my new VPI Classic 1 trying to get everything just right.  Starting to think that is like playing golf.  It can always get better and no matter how you do, you just know you need to keep working on it!

I have a digital scale and a fozogometer and have used them with good results.  However, I am getting hung up on the anti-skate adjustments.  I am using the Hi-Fi News Analogue Test LP.  Side one has 4 tracks that deal with anti-skate at progressively higher amplitudes....tracks 6,7,8 and 9.  Leaving the anti-skate mechanism disconnected and simply relying on the tonearm wires to apply a slight anti-skate force (recommended by VPI) produces the worst result...lots of distortion and buzzing.  I can hook up the mechanism and experiment with differing amounts of weight to get my Benz Micro Glider SH to track the first 2 tests perfectly with zero distortion.  The 3rd track just starts to indicate some very slight buzzing in the right channel.  The 4th track... forget it.  It derails the train every time, no matter what I do, it will not stay in the groove at all.

Are my expectations here too high?  I have to admit that it does sound incredibly good as is.  Just wondering what I should expect as it relates to this test and anti-skate calibration using this test LP.  As always, appreciate any advice or comments.

These "test albums" leave  one with the idea that a turntable, arm and cart cannot be set up period. How many tracks on any album owned and listened to come anywhere near how those torture tracks were recorded?  My guess is probably none.  How many of these "anti-skate" tracks are recorded at either inner or outer null points? (take your pick of nulls) Why does this question matter? Simple, the break up of signal is the sylus coming out of the groove at least on one side. The IMD of the ablum cut at places other than the nulls is off. Trying to cure that with adding or subtracting bias is compounding the problem.  Is the breakup caused soley by impropper bias? Generally no. During torture tracks, the arm bearings are going through hell as well. Both the vertical and horizontal bearings.  That "hell" the bearings are going through is rapid changes in velocity from static conditions to severe kenitic conditions.  The amount of play in arm bearings (of standard type pivoted arms) is far greater than the amount of movement a stylus needs to produce a signal.

[twitch54]

During torture tracks, the arm bearings are going through hell as well. Both the vertical and horizontal bearings.  That "hell" the bearings are going through is rapid changes in velocity from static conditions to severe kenitic conditions.  The amount of play in arm bearings (of standard type pivoted arms) is far greater than the amount of movement a stylus needs to produce a signal.

does not apply to VPI (uni-pivot) arms though

[neobop]

I am wondering if that 4th track is only possible for the extreme upper end equipment?? 

I think I currently have the monofilament line trapped down against the pivot point with an o-ring on top of it, and I have 2 o-rings about 2/3 of the way out on the counter weight arm.  That gives me the best tracking result I can get, at least according to the test LP.  I did then go back and re-adjust the azimuth with my new best friend...the Fozogometer.  And I also rechecked tracking force.  Everything is good.  I am just a little annoyed that I cannot get the 3rd track to eliminate every bit of distortion.... and I would like to be able to at least keep it in the groove on the 4th track.  But I guess that just may be a limitation of my current gear.  Oh well.  Still sounds awesome.  Thanks.

I must have read about a million posts by people using that test record and applying too much anti-skate. Maybe it was 2 million, LOL. The fact of the matter is that anti-skate requirements vary throughout a record and from record to record. Using too much anti-skate is just as bad as too little. BaMorin is right in saying that those tracks are probably not representative of your music/records. Put the test record away and save it for arm/cart resonance or something else it can test without messing things up.

If you want to reset your anti-skate to a reasonable and useful level, I suggest you start by putting it back to a minimal setting. Then, as you play records you would normally listen to, increase or decrease according to channel balance. Increase anti-skate for more right ch and decrease for more left. With most unipivots anti-skate can effect azimuth. Improper azimuth can sound similar to improper anti-skate. One trick is to eyeball the cart from the front, just as you would to look at azimuth. Look at the cantilever angle in relation to cart body. You'll be able to tell a lot with a Glider. Remember, anti-skate is applied to the arm, not the cart. So if the body is closer to the spindle than the tip, you could use a little more anti-skate.
neo

[BaMorin]

does not apply to VPI (uni-pivot) arms though

Well, yes and no. Yes the amount of bearing chatter is reduced down to a much smaller amout of frequencies, hopefully one. (*)The greater number of bearings, the greater number of noise. At certain frequencies friction does not exist. At other frequencies, friction will cause the item to lock up solid (stagnation, galvanic etc.)  What I'm suggesting here is that not all of the skating issues the test album is showing is actually caused by the "moments" that create the skating. And trying to correct the issues that are primary (arm/cart/bearing resonate point(s)) through a secondary action of adding side load to the horizonal pivot system is counter productive to getting the best setting results of particular arm/cart/musical album.

*

regardles of arm, nature is going to force any tonearm through 3 vibrational modes. How well the bearing at the termination (pivots...unipivot...knife edge.. etc) reduce those modes (time, amplitude) is up to how well it was constucted.

[Minn Mark]

Don't want this to sound like a pitch, but I suggest the OP and others interested contact a reputable VPI dealer, esp. one like Galen Carol Audio. I purchased my VPI Classic I from Galen last summer. He mounted and adjusted my cart for me. I use NO antiskate, and never tried it. My TT sings.  I would go back to Mr Carol for advice before trying anything myself.  Just a suggestion. The OP will gets lots of advice in this forum as well, and that's a good thing, but a phone call or visit with a VPI dealer may fit your needs.

You will love your VPI deck.

Best,

Mark

[twitch54]

a phone call or visit with a VPI dealer may fit your needs.
Mark

good point Mark and to that I say give a call to Mike @ VPI for a chat as well.

[95Dyna]

Don't want this to sound like a pitch, but I suggest the OP and others interested contact a reputable VPI dealer, esp. one like Galen Carol Audio. I purchased my VPI Classic I from Galen last summer. He mounted and adjusted my cart for me. I use NO antiskate, and never tried it. My TT sings.  I would go back to Mr Carol for advice before trying anything myself.  Just a suggestion. The OP will gets lots of advice in this forum as well, and that's a good thing, but a phone call or visit with a VPI dealer may fit your needs.

You will love your VPI deck.

Best,

Mark

+1 Mark.  You may recall me putting in a plug for Galen with you prior to your purchase.  Galen set mine up as well.  I don't use the anti skate per VPI recommendation.  They include it reluctantly to keep complainers happy (not my words but Harry Weisfeld's)

[Bigload]

I actually bought the turntable from Galen, and did visit about the anti-skate.  He said he normally leaves it disconnected, but feel free to experiment.  Then when I turned to the test record and tried it disconnected, it produced distortion on 3 of the 4 test tracks.  So.... the experimentation went into full swing.  I do understand what is being said here.... basically forget the test record and just experiment with what pleases the ear when playing real records.  Got it.  Good advise.  Thanks.

[Æ]

I wonder why you wouldn't use anti skating especially since all the better tone arms have it, definitely have it for a well known reason.

Don't want this to sound like a pitch, but I suggest the OP and others interested contact a reputable VPI dealer, esp. one like Galen Carol Audio. I purchased my VPI Classic I from Galen last summer. He mounted and adjusted my cart for me. I use NO antiskate, and never tried it. My TT sings.  I would go back to Mr Carol for advice before trying anything myself.  Just a suggestion. The OP will gets lots of advice in this forum as well, and that's a good thing, but a phone call or visit with a VPI dealer may fit your needs.

You will love your VPI deck.

Best,

Mark

[BaMorin]

I wonder why you wouldn't use anti skating especially since all the better tone arms have it, definitely have it for a well known reason.

As others have pointed out, adding "anti-skate" devices to the arm was to sell arms to people who absolutely believe it is needed more than it really is. The original VPI arm is similar to the original XA arm in adding a bit of torque to the arm wires to resist side thrust. That system works fine.  In almost every standard type arm where the wires run down through the pillar, as the arm sweeps across the record a natural bias takes place. The arm wires are twisting up some which causes a bit of bias side load. So, not only does skating forces of the album change during play, natural bias and added bias (anti-skate device)
change constatly as well.

Anti-skate is probably the most over-hashed subject, while being the most mis-understood phenomena of playback.  The "standard answer" from most cart manufactures is to set the bias to the same rate as tracking force.........couldn't be further from the truth. 

Trying to set anti-skate by ear any other place on an (musical ) album than at near the null points, and you're trying to compensate for the natural tracking error of the arm sweep.

The torture tracks on these albums usually impart energies into the arm/cart not seen during typical playback............why these torture tracks exist are beyond me.

[neobop]

There are actually quite a few considerations and one simple rule doesn't apply. Skating is a very real phenomenon that is caused by stylus drag. This drag is the result of the difference in offset angle from the tip to pivot to offset.

Internal tonearm wires vary dramatically in stiffness. The original VPI arms offered no anti-skate. The wires leaving the back of the arm tube were twisted in varying amounts to provide the necessary opposition to the inward arm motion. Apparently, very little if any additional anti-skate is usually needed. Other arms and wires will differ in anti-skate requirements.
neo

[Æ]

Of course you don't "absolutely" need it. I guess if we all had perfectly smooth roads to drive on our cars wouldn't need shock absorbers either.
So, what's your take on wearing seat belts? Better to be thrown out and land clear, than remain safely in the car?

As others have pointed out, adding "anti-skate" devices to the arm was to sell arms to people who absolutely believe it is needed more than it really is. The original VPI arm is similar to the original XA arm in adding a bit of torque to the arm wires to resist side thrust. That system works fine.  In almost every standard type arm where the wires run down through the pillar, as the arm sweeps across the record a natural bias takes place. The arm wires are twisting up some which causes a bit of bias side load. So, not only does skating forces of the album change during play, natural bias and added bias (anti-skate device)
change constatly as well.

Anti-skate is probably the most over-hashed subject, while being the most mis-understood phenomena of playback.  The "standard answer" from most cart manufactures is to set the bias to the same rate as tracking force.........couldn't be further from the truth. 

Trying to set anti-skate by ear any other place on an (musical ) album than at near the null points, and you're trying to compensate for the natural tracking error of the arm sweep.

The torture tracks on these albums usually impart energies into the arm/cart not seen during typical playback............why these torture tracks exist are beyond me.

[orthobiz]

 

[BaMorin]

Of course you don't "absolutely" need it. I guess if we all had perfectly smooth roads to drive on our cars wouldn't need shock absorbers either.
So, what's your take on wearing seat belts? Better to be thrown out and land clear, than remain safely in the car?

you must have read something I didn't type.  FTR, I am a seatbelt "nazi", always wear them and everybody in my car wears them.   I'll try this a different way..........setting antiskate via the torture tracks on these test albums is akin to setting VTF during the cannon shots on the Telarc 1812 album. If the sylus comes out of the groove, add a couple of pounds.......you'll play the cannon shot.................once or twice.
Adding enough bias to pass the torture tracks will get the bias setting so far off what is needed during normal musical album playback that your bias setting (to pass the torture test) will indeed cause damage to your Musical albums.

[Bigload]

Well, not to belabor this discussion, but I had to share the results I found after a full evening of experimenting based simply on what sounds better on a real record.  The test record did not lie.  I chose a Philippe Saisse record with a wide mix of music.... chimes, piano, base, voice.  I experiemnted with everything from unhooking the anti-skate completely to adding incremental weights until I was out of weights, re-adjusting azimuth with every change..  The weight out, all the way in, etc, etc.  I found that with the anti-skate hooked up using a single o ring to hold the line down on the pivot point, and adding 2 o-rings about 2/3 of the way out on the off setting shaft gave the best result.  The chimes were much more clear and noticeable, the base was strong but remained very musical, and the voices were crystal clear.  This also happened to be the same anti-skate setting that the test record liked the best too.  So, I am basically back to where I started.  The test record will play the first 2 test tracks perfectly.  The third one starts to distort a little, and the 4th one is impossible to play.  But in the real world of record listening, this was also what performed best for me as well.  Everything sounds great.  I'm happy as a lark with everything.  It was great advise to just let your ears decide while listening to real records.  If you have never experimented with yours, it might be worth while to try it.  Thanks for all of your comments and feedback.