[zmocsary]

Hello everyone! I am returning to the circle after a long absence.
 After 5-6 years of using tube amplification, I took the plunge into digital amplification again (had been disappointed with it in the past) and bought a pair of 9 SE V3 which made me so impressed with their sound that went on to purchase the Ref 18s.
 Based on the reviews, I expected a big jump in sound quality compared to the 9 SE V3s; instead, the difference appears subtle or barely noticeable at best.
  The amps are  sounding very good,  pristine clear, smooth with sweet highs,  large soundstage, good bass but thinner in the midbass and midrange than my prior tube amps (Quicksilvers, Manleys etc.)
 In other words, they do not appear to have the body and spatial separation that the tubes have, especially a custom-made KT88 amp made by a technician friend of mine which beats them all, be it digital, solid state or tube amp in commercial production.
The superiority of tubes is more obvious on digital—on high resolution recordings or vinyl, the gap is smaller.
I was initially using a solid state preamp (Wyred 4 Sound) which appeared to be a great match with the 18s, but when went backwards and I hooked the tube amps up, I immediately realized that that there is a body and flesh to the sound that I am missing on the 18s. 
When I reinstalled my EAR 868s in front of the 18s, however,  the sound became lush, full-bodied and the 18s began to sound as I originally expected.
My original purpose was to get rid of the tubes and have a solid state amp/preamp that can do everything tubes are capable of and more. It seems that I still have to keep tubes in the front end to achieve this goal.
I have not tried the Nuforce preamp so I cannot comment on its sound but I suspect it would have a similar character as the Wyred 4 Sound Pre. 
Is there any way to achieve a full-bodied sound without tubes?
I really like the Ref 18s and know that they have a lot of potential (especially with the upgrade path that Nuforce offers.) Hence, I would like to continue to configure my system around them.
The Upgrade Company offers an upgrade for Nuforce products and amps which include installation of V-Caps—would this improve the sound and not void the warranty?
Can any of you guys, especially Jason at Nuforce, advise me how to make the sound fuller without having to utilize tubes?
I know that a new Nuforce reference preamp is in the making—will be curious to know if these push the Ref 18s further.
I'd appreciate any comments and advice you may have.
I will post the rest of my system in the next couple of days.

Thanks,

Zoltan

[steve_sf]

I have a tube component hooked up to my Ref 9SEs and love how the Nuforce amps precisely convey the body and musicality of that tube source. Any particular reason why you want to avoid tubes altogether? Personally, I find the combination to be ideal since my tube source is very detailed and lacks what I would describe as tube smear: the way some tube components make, for example, massed string instruments sound like mush.

[zmocsary]

Do not get me wrong, I love tube sound. However, I find tubed devices incovenient and impractical, because of numerous reasons, such as inefficiency, heat production, unreliability, cost of tube replacement etc.
With the advance of transistor technology, especially the advent of digital amplification, tube technology may soon become obsolete and be a thing of the past.
Since I like to leave my gear on and also have my two channel rig integrated into my HT system, I am leaning towards using exclusively solid state components, because these do not require mantenance.
It would be great to achieve or surpass the sound of tubes without tubes and I am quite convinced that this will happen--it is just a question of time. 

[EricR]

I have a tube component hooked up to my Ref 9SEs and love how the Nuforce amps precisely convey the body and musicality of that tube source. Any particular reason why you want to avoid tubes altogether? Personally, I find the combination to be ideal since my tube source is very detailed and lacks what I would describe as tube smear: the way some tube components make, for example, massed string instruments sound like mush.

steve_sf,

Do you mind sharing with us which tube source you are using successfully with the ref9SEs? I am tempted to go this route in addition to or in place of my LavryDA10. However, I'm scared to wind up with something mushy as you say. More lush, no mush. Is that possible?

Thanks

[hifial]

Hi Zoltan. I am awaiting delivery of my Reference 18 amps but have a couple of insights that I want to share. Now you may have tried or may be aware of the following so bear with me.
 When I auditioned the 18s I was able to keep them on trial for quite awhile.
1) They need a very long brake in period. Way more then what Neforce recommends. Just as an example I found the same held true for several of my earlier amps, Theta Digital, Halcro, Bryston. I think as the hours add up over the next few months you should notice that the amp will change and then even out in sound quality.
2) Do not put them in standby. Keep them on by the front panel at all times.
3) Give them clean power. They will sound better hooked up to a good power conditioner. However, Neforce told me to only use a passive type, not a regenerative type.
4) Use the balanced connection.
I personally found the midrange , midbass to be fine, but maybe I am comparing them to my none tube amps. Out of all the amps I have had in my system over the years, these gave my the best of tubes and solid state together when I had them in my system over the audition period. I can say that in my system the 18s sound far better then any amp I have had. And the only amps that I heard during my search that came close cost twice as much. Now do not get me wrong, I love the sound of good tube equipment, I just do not like the hassle and heat and cost and wait to warm up and... well you get my meaning.  I have to say I am anxiously awaiting the delivery so I can start to begin the long brake in process and enjoy the sound of these great amps.
 
My system consists of; B&W 802D speakers, MIT M1 Pro Balanced cabling, PS Audio Perfect Wave Dac, Bridge and Transport, and Bryston 14B SST2 amp soon to be replaced with the Nuforce Reference 18 amps. 

[worldcat]

Hifial which theta amps did you have?  I love the way the 18s sound on my system they made a huge improvement.  I have very revealing speakers but al is right, leave them on all the time.  Nuforce amps will tell you how good everything is up stream. If you want to get the best out of the 18s buy a Veloce preamp the game will be over.  Everybody's system is differenent so it takes time to get the synergy right.  I will say this though the 18s are a good place to start, they are good amps. 

[steve_sf]

steve_sf,

Do you mind sharing with us which tube source you are using successfully with the ref9SEs? I am tempted to go this route in addition to or in place of my LavryDA10. However, I'm scared to wind up with something mushy as you say. More lush, no mush. Is that possible?

Thanks

Hi EricR,

What I have most likely falls into the category of "unobtanium," unless it can be found on the used market. It's an Alex Peychev (APL) HiFi modified Denon 3910 design featuring 6 32-bit mono AKM DACs in parallel with transformer-coupled tube output stage. My other sources are digital so I route them through the digital input Alex added to the player. The Denon connects through a passive preamp, the Placette Audio Remote Volume Control, to the Nuforce amps. Alex does have a solid state DAC that somehow manages to not sound digital to my ear and is working on a tube-based DAC. The solid state DAC is in the range of NuForce gear in terms of price while the tube DAC will be fairly high end. However, if you do find one of his Denon 3910's on the market most likely he'd be willing to upgrade it to the latest design next time he's in the States.

I'm really sensitive to what I would characterize as tube smear and I do hear it in a lot of tube electronics. My experience has been that it's only the really expensive gear that exhibits most or all of the attributes I seek and Alex's (now discontinued) Denon redesigns made those high-end characteristics accessible to folks on more limited budgets.

[EricR]

Thanks for the reply Steve_sf. Sounds like you have gone in deep to put your rig together. I always hope it is going to be easy answer, but I should know better by now. 

[hifial]

Worldcat, the Theta I had was the Dreadnaught II with the 225 watt per channel cards.

I have to say I liked all my amps, but each one had something missing in what I was looking for.
 The Dreadnaught II was dam good at the time, around 2003, but I was looking to do a makeover of my system. And it was not at the level I wanted as far as the sound. At the time my main system had B&W 805 Signatures, B&K Processor, and the Theta amp. I then replaced the 805s with the B&W 802D and added a Wadia 861. That is when I new the Theta could not keep up with the Wadia and the B&W 802D. At the time I could play the 861s direct into the Theta. That is  when I got the Halcro MC20 amp and MC30amp and SP100 processor. Iwould play the 861 both direct to the amp and through the processor. I really liked the Halcro stuff. Very clean, no distortion, not strident, and great dynamics. But again there was something missing. Maybe it was the sound, the harmonics that tubes can bring. After a while I new music was headed to some sort of server based setup so I again did an over hall.
I sold off the Halcro stuff and the Wadia 861, Shynuta Hydra 8 (and a PS3) and even my Nordost Red Dawn cables. Pretty much everything.
Then I got the PS Audio Perfect Wave Dac/Bridge and Transport and the Bryston 14B SST2 and MIT cables and Running Springs PC. I love the sound of the Perfect Wave and MIT. The Bryston was better in some ways then the Halcro and others the equal and not in others. It had a touch more of what I was looking for.
 I am sure if I spent some God awful amount of money on an amp I might have found what I was looking for. Or if I went for tubes, though I think it would have to be in the rang of ten grand or more. I also wanted to go for mono blocks this time and not change anything else. I tried both SS class A and class A/B amps and the price kept going higher and higher. When it got close to 15-16 grand and the sound I was looking for started to show with one but still came up short  at close to 15 grand, I said no way.
That is when I looked into several class D amps (the Halcro is D). I also wanted a good size company, not a single man operation more or less.
So that knocked out some right away, DAC , Sanders, Hephaestus to name a few. Do not get me wrong, each of those might make a great product, they just did not fit my criteria.
So it left me with three, Spectron, Audio Research Corp and Nuforce. The problem with Spectron was the only way to audition was in buying the amps ($8-$10,000) with a 30 day return policy, and they were willing to give me 45-60 days. But I did not want to spend $150-$200 in return shipping as the amps are 60lbs each.
I heard the Audio Research amps, DS450M, at my local dealer. A good friend came along and we both came to the same conclusion. It was a little strident and we got listener fatigue. It is possible that the amps only had a few hours on them but we heard them for a couple of hours and they did not improve. Very disappointing. They were also $10,000.
One of two Nuforce dealers in my area had the Ref 18s in and let me take them home to audition and they just gave me what I was looking for. The best of solid state and the best of tubes.

Sorry for the long, long post.

[zmocsary]

Hifial,

I appreciate your points/observations about the Ref 18s.
I bought them lightly used but is seems like they are still burning in, because
the sound keeps betting better and better. The stage is opening up more and there is more sense of space than 2 weeks ago when I first heard them.
It sounds like you have tried multiple solid state amps, including Halcros,
Theta Digital, Bryston and so far you have found the Nuforce to be the best.
This says a lot for the Nuforce because the other amps are very highly regarded and typically more expensive.
One question about power conditioning—you mentioned that the 18s would benefit from a good conditioner but not from a power regenerator—in other words, the PS Audio Premier, I have, is not  recommended? I have tried the amps on the Premier yet; they are hooked up to the Ultimate Outlet which is
plugged into the wall and I use Cardas Golden Reference cords which have built
in filtration without current limiting.  They sound great this way.
As I said, they have been surpassed by only one amp I know of, a custom built KT88 amp that uses expensive military grade parts and has been fitted with V-caps—perhaps I am only hearing the V-cap advantage, because these amps were not as good without the V-caps.
I am considering sending the 18s to the Upgrade Company for installation of'
V-caps and putting in more internal shielding which, according to them, would dramaticallyimprove the sound over the stock unit.  They have upgraded hundreds of Nuforce units  (amps, preamps, CD players) and never had a return or complaint.
They have a 5 year warranty on the work, in conjunction with Nuforce.
They can upgrade and hotrod almost anything.   It is worth checking out their website!

Zoltan

[worldcat]

I use to have theta citadels and I much prefer the ref 18s.  Also don't forget to add the magic cubes with them I really like what they do for sound on these amps. I too have been using a ps audio regenerator on my amps I have compared them to the black noise filters Nuforce carries, IMO not much difference in sound but with the ref9s I thought the ps was much better.

[cliffy]

Worldcat,

Did you try any aftermarket PC on your Ref9's?  I have a pair of Ref9v3SE that I want to try some new PC on.

Thanks,

Spencer

[worldcat]

Yes I have tried the top of line ps audio.  I liked the black noise filters much better.  I would like to know more about the upgrades from the upgrade company how much different it makes.

[hifial]

Zoltan,  You are welcome. It was my understanding from talking to Nuforce that they do not recommend a regeneration type power conditioner and recommended a passive type. I have no problem with PS Audio or many others but you want to make  sure that your power conditioner does not squash the music dynamics. There only a few that do not. Some that come to mind are Running Springs, Audience, some Shunyata.  I used to use a Hydra 8 but switched to a Running Springs Jaco. I do feel that Running Springs does not receive enough press. I have heard of The Upgrade Co and did notice that they are offering an upgrade for the Ref 18s. I would also be very interested in knowing how much of an improvement over the stock 18s it is. My one concern is if you have the upgrade done what do you do if Nuforce has an update to the 18s. How would you have Nuforce do the update on the modified unit. Yea the V Caps are highly regarded. I know that Spectron offers them as an optional upgrade on their mono blocks. There are several models of V Caps. You should check out their web site.
I think you should give the 18s more time burning in (500- 700 maybe 1000 hours) and maybe a better power conditioner. You might want to try some vibration control. I put Finite Elemente Cerapucs under my dac and transport and heard an immediate improvement. The ones I would recommend besides Finite would be Stillpoints and the new ones by Nordost. I will be putting some under my 18s.
Some of the members in the Audio club I belong to use the PS Audio Premier and love it. And they are very "prove it to me first" types. You should call Nuforce and ask for Casey and ask him to explain to you why that do not recommend regeneration type power conditioners.

Worldcat. Wow Citadels, impressive. Yea, I had considered the Magic Cubes but the price gave me second thoughts. I was also thinking about having my Running Springs Jaco upgraded (another reason why I like RS)to the new version. Between the two it would cost me close to $1,200 and there are other things I want to do audio  wise so I at first choose to do the RS upgrade but then changed my mind. I will do that at a later date. Can you describe what the Magic Cubes make a difference in.

Spencer. In your post are asking about (PC) power conditioners or power cords. 
If it is Power Cords that is a good question for everyone who own Nuforce Amps.

[cliffy]

Hifal (and Worldcat),

Sorry for the ambiguity   I meant Power Cords.

Spencer

[worldcat]

On my system it adds to the micro detail.  But there is something else that just makes my system sound so right more like a live performance.

[gammajo]

Jumping in late but to answer about non hassle tubed preamps that I have used with my ref9V3SE's that mate very well, I first enjoyed Audio Horizon preamp and now love my Ayon CD5s with the Nuforce. Also if anyone has had the Upgrade Company do thier unit I would love to hear feedback on this