[klh]

How long do you think it will be until an LC Audio amplifier kit will be available? Also, will you carry their active crossover... or do you think it is below par? Some type of combo unit might be very interesting the DIY speaker builder.

[Kevin P]

Funny you mention it....most of the major parts are now in stock and I'm working on instructions & pictures for the 2 channel kit today.   I'll post some pics later today and more details on pricing and availability.  

The two channel amp & integrated version with the DACT parts are going to be released first.  For the multichannel product we are waiting for the clock sync module to be finished by LC Audio.   It allows you to both select a clock frequency & sync all the modules in the chassis which lower emmisions and increases efficiency.   Running a higher frequency than stock may have some subjective performance benefits also...

Review to come at 6moons with a comparison with the Bel Canto & the Icepower amps.   This should be a great review because we have the Bel Canto with the Tripath, ICEPower with the B&O and our LC Audio modules all in one comparison.

[Peter]

Review to come at 6moons with a comparison with the Bel Canto & the Icepower amps. This should be a great review because we have the Bel Canto with the Tripath, ICEPower with the B&O and our LC Audio modules all in one comparison.

ICEpower is just a technology. I modified the modules using this technology to sound much better than original. Therefore you can't compare any of your amps using ICEpower with our amps, period.

Best regards,
Peter

[Peter]

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you are going to offer kits with all kind of technologies:
The ordinary class-Diy technology,
Class-Tripath,
and the sinusoidal modulating signal with Zero for the cleanest possible modulation: ICEpower.

Here is a link discussing the ordinary Class-Diy technology:

http://audioworld.com/sw/Forum1/HTML/003526.html

[Carlman]

I don't know who Peter is, I guess a guy that sells gear at Acoustic Reality...  The ICEpower comments are confusing to me.  Are you saying you're using ICEpower technology to modify LC Audio modules?  Why wouldn't someone be able to compare amps because of this?  I don't understand your point.... especially the last comment about DIY stuff.  I'm not 'in on it' I guess.  

In any case, it would be nice to get a little clarification on what exactly is getting compared in that review.  Is it modified gear or something new?

Thanks,
Carl

[Kevin P]

I'm sorry Peter but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't promote your product on my forum.   I'm willing to wait for a third party review to compare the products.

In terms of the amplifier here are a couple preliminary photos of the chassis and layout.   Note... this is the very simplest 2-channel kit version, which will use two of the LC Audio ZP2.2SE modules, and the LC Audio developed Predator power supply.   I have a 650VA transformer in this picture but 500VA gives us 200W into 8 Ohms and 400W into 4 Ohms conservatively.   Base price for this kit will be about $850 for everything needed for a complete 2-channel amplifier.   Availablity?   They will be available without a transformer on 5-1-2004.   Complete with transformer in about 5-6 weeks.

We also have an integrated version utilizing the DACT stepped attenuators and a DACT selector switch.   The 2-channel kit will be $1200 complete.   Note both versions have the option for true balanced inputs and use high quality Cardas parts for speaker post and RCA inputs.   Availability on the integrated version is going to lag about 2 weeks behind the basic amplifier.

Notes on the chassis design.

#1.   Front and back panels are a flat 3mm aluminum plate.   We are going to sell the chassis parts for various amplifier products.   We have left a general grid of holes in the bottom of the chassis for PCB designers to design around.   We will offer a layout diagram giving dimensions for those who wish to utilize the chassis for either prototype work or for DIYers who want to have an easy to finish enclosure for any number of projects.   The following third party company offers flat panel prototype work for a very reasonable cost.   We have used them for a couple panels and a custom CNC cut unit cost us less than $20 each.   We will offer a template for our chassis to simplify the process for DIYers and this opens the door for DIYers to source a reasonably priced professional looking chassis that will have all the machine work finished by a CNC router.   No metal work needed and COMPLETE design flexibility for the front & rear panels.  Free software which gives you pricing on the finished part is available for download.

www.frontpanelexpress.com

#2.  The finish is powder-coated gray/black with a slight texture.   I went this direction because it is particularly difficult to damage/scratch.   This is the same finish as used on mountain bikes and other parts that need a much tougher finish than anodized aluminum or normal paint.  The top/ bottom is 0.062" steel for strength and rigidity.   All screws with the exception of the front panel are high quality flush mount torx screws.   The tapped holes are VERY high quality and tolerance.   The front panel fasteners are stainless Allen screws.   I'm a DIY kind of guy and parts quality on these types of things was very important to me.   I hate cheap fasteners and mechanical parts.    

#3.  Lots of room inside the chassis and you need only to pop a couple high quality screws to work on the amplifier.   We arranged all AC power on one side of the chassis and all signal level activities on the other.   We have left plenty of room for future expansion including options for expanding these into a 5-channel amplifier.   You would need to replace the transformer with a 1KVA unit and we will offer a replacement back panel so that you can make the upgrade in the future.   Also options for other signal level activities (active crossover, DSP etc...) are on the drawing board.   On the AC power side we have left room for a inductor/cap filter network option, slow start & DC filter for the transformer.


Enough rambling...  here are some pics:

http://www.diycable.com/images/digital-front.jpg">  




http://www.diycable.com/images/digital-back.jpg">  




http://www.diycable.com/images/guts.jpg">

[Kevin P]

How long do you think it will be until an LC Audio amplifier kit will be available? Also, will you carry their active crossover... or do you think it is below par? Some type of combo unit might be very interesting the DIY speaker builder.

I'm sorry klh.... missed this on the first post.

I have yet to see the LC Audio acitve crossover kit.   I'm sure it is of excellent quality but the problem with general active crossovers is that they don't work very well in general.   The process of crossover design, either active or passive requires that you know what needs to be corrected.    You just cannot slap a couple drivers together and build a generic crossover and get good results.   There is a process of speaker design that roughly follows this pattern.

#1.  Layout design goals.   Size, cost, bandwidth, max SPL, etc....

#2.  Choose an enclosure/drivers based on some of the above.

#3.  Measure response of choosen drivers IN THE ENCLOSURE.   The response graphs offered on most web pages or in product lititure is next to useless.   You need to measure response in your enclosure before you can start the process of crossover design.

#4.   Computer simulation time.... do some work on LSPCad.

#5.  After you have a design build and test.   This can be done in several iterations before you end up with a final design.   If you are good (and have lots of practical experience) you can do step #5 and get it right the first time 95% of the time.


I'm sure there are other people doing speaker design in different ways but this is the method we will use along with lots of listening before I'll offer a speaker for sale.   For our speakers Dan Wiggins is doing the design and I'm doing the listening.

In terms of active crossover though.... I think they are great and I'm working on boards to use for a couple of active speakers that we will sell.   Some of those PCBs could be used in general but I don't want to give people the idea that they can get good results by just slapping the active crossover into a system.

[Peter]

I am not promoting any of our products on your forum, because the Internet is not our marketplace, but just want to tell that you can't promote our your amps on a coming review of our amps; I know nothing about the content, as far as I know it is not yet written.

Btw: You may have noted that our middle-cost-model amps has been compared to anything our there. Further, you may also have noted we just received a prestigious US award of this model, which I btw really didn't know anything about before three days ago, but again, this amp is too expensive for most Internet customers; you know, there is a big difference between Low Cost and High-End.

[StevenACNJ]

For the multichannel product we are waiting for the clock sync module to be finished by LC Audio.   It allows you to both select a clock frequency & sync all the modules in the chassis which lowe ...

Any idea when LC Audio will fhave the clock module finished. Also will this module come with a power supply?

[JoshK]

Peter,

you most certainly are promoting your amps on this thread.  you've been asked before not to do such, afaik.

[Kevin P]

In any case, it would be nice to get a little clarification on what exactly is getting compared in that review.  Is it modified gear or something new?

Thanks,
Carl

We will sell a kit that is very easy to assemble based on the LC Audio digital amplifier modules.   LC Audio developed this entire product and the only other company that I am aware of using it is Kevin at SolarHiFi.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=59&sid=58439b61f02a594deada1dcc55b4137f

We may offer a finished version for a couple hundred extra dollars depending upon demand.

Peter, if I'm not mistaken, is Acoustic Reality.   Acoustic Reality has been offering a digital amplifier for some time.   Instead of me commenting on the product you can take a look at their web site for more details.   They have a product in for review at 6moons as does Bel Canto.   Bel Canto is using a Tripath based chip on their proprietary board which has had some success in the commercial market.   In terms of how our product will compare..... I prefer to let other people make those comments and let the reviewers come to their own conclusions.  

http://www.acoustic-reality.com/

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audioreviews.html

[Peter]

Kevin P, well written.
JoshK, no you are wrong.

[klh]

Very interesteing stuff... Kevin P.

Do you have a price for the multi-channel amp (5 and hopefully 7 channels)? Even if it is only a ballpark estimate, it would be appreciated. Also, can you make a rough estimate of how long it will be until it is ready?

Thanks a lot...

Krister

[sica]

Hi Kevin P, I am a newbie, and I am confused by all the brands out there.  My questions are:
Why do you prefer LC Audio modules?  What are its strength and weaknesses?
Is your new amp kit right for me if I prefer a tube like liquid sound?
Thanks.

[Kevin P]

Very interesteing stuff... Kevin P.

Do you have a price for the multi-channel amp (5 and hopefully 7 channels)? Even if it is only a ballpark estimate, it would be appreciated. Also, can you make a rough estimate of how long it will be until it is ready?

Thanks a lot...

Krister

Price for the 5-channel is determined by larger transformer, more ZP modules, larger power supply and more input/outputs on the rear channel.   The current chassis shouldn't have any trouble supporting 5 channels but getting seven of them in there would be tight.   Mainly because of the space on the rear panel.  

A 5-channel version should sell for around $1600-$1800 though.   I'd figure on a 1KVA transformer for 5-channel use which cost about $40-$50 more than the the 500VA part.   The LC Audio ZP 2.2SE is $230/channel and you would need more power supply which adds about another $100 to the price.

I'm not even going to guess on a delivery date right now.   I'd expect before the end of the year but not within the next couple months.

[Kevin P]

Hi Kevin P, I am a newbie, and I am confused by all the brands out there.  My questions are:
Why do you prefer LC Audio modules?  What are its strength and weaknesses?
Is your new amp kit right for me if I prefer a tube like liquid sound?
Thanks.

sica:  Welcome to the game.


Let me handle the first question.   I prefer the LC Audio modules because I sell them.   Really... I'm an LC Audio distributor and I've built the amplifiers around a DIY part that I've been selling & stocking for a little over a year.   It never was a consideration for me to use either a Tripath or other type of digital amplifier technology due to the amount of development work needed to produce a product.   I'm not Bel Canto and don't have the resources available to R&D a product from scratch.  

In terms of technical differenes.... to really understand the differences you need an engineering background.   There are design choices made by any engineer.   There is no such thing as the "best" approach.   You have to consider your budget and design goals and then try to take the best approach considering what tools & price constraints are available.   LC Audio has done some great work on the amplifier modules.   I'm just supplying the surrounding parts (chassis, wire, transformers etc...).  

One thing the LC Audio modules have going for them is that they have been designed for the high-end market from the beginning.   The parts quality on board (use of Blackgates, quality chokes & passive components) far surpasses what you would see on a consumer level product.  

In terms of how they sound.... I'm not someone who spews a bunch of subjective terms about.   I'd prefer that third parties like reviewers and customers talk about the product and I'll leave my comments to more quantifiable things.    But to me, none of the digital amplifiers sound like tube amps.   At least not the tube amps that I use & sell.   They have a totally different character.   Is it better?  Worse?   It depends.... system matching and taste play a huge role.   For some speaker loads you cannot use most tube amplifiers.   For things like Electrostatics, Quads etc... these amps are just a perfect match.   For my DIY Edgar horns I'd much rather have my 300Bs & a measly 8W of power.

[sica]

Thanks Kevin

[StevenACNJ]

Kevin,

When do you think the LC clock module will be available for the digital amp?

[JoshK]

Kevin,

If I were to purchase the Predator PS, the Zappulse 2.2SE, the only remaining parts needed to build an amp would be a case, transformer, input/output jacks/binding posts/iec, and wire correct?  No other needed electronics?

[Kevin P]

StevenACNJ:    I don't have a date.  If LC Audio doesn't have them in about a month I'm going to build my own PCB though so 8-10 weeks is the current estimate.

JoshK:   Correct... the very most basic set-up would be the Preditor power supply, & two ZP 2.2SE units  and surrounding parts.     Cost is roughly $540 and the 2 channel kit price is $850.   I'd encourage you to get the kit as it saves scrounging all the various parts and GREATLY simplifies the process.

Other parts used in the kit:

Chassis with all associated fastners
Transformer  500VA 2x42V
Cardas binding post & RCAs
Neutrik XLRs
Schurter IEC with fuse
Power switch with LED
Cardas internal wire & 15.5 AWG chassis wire

We designed the IEC to take either the Schurter 6200 series power entry modules or the filtered 5200 series.  The 6200 series is standard but if you so desired you could add a filtered IEC by ordering it from Mouser.   Mouser Part#: 693-5200.1023.1

Other options would be the LC Audio DC filter, LC Audio slow start module and upgrades for the Cardas parts if you desire the more expensive Cardas connectors (the basic kit comes with the base model HCBP-S & CTFA RCAs).

If you try and source your own you will quickly find that it cost more than what I'm charging for the kit and the kit layout is proven to work.   Shielding the inputs is very important as is layout.... keeping the power supply right next to the ZP modules is critical and routing AC wires and inputs/outputs can also impact performance.