Imaging and Soundstage...........There is no language in my lungs....

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ebag4

To tell you what I heard last night.  I debated whether or not to post about this for fear of it sounding like more audiophile rhetoric, but screw it, here it goes.

For the last couple of years I have been working on my very small room (10.5'x12.5') trying to create a decent sounding acoustic enviornment.  I have installed bass traps, first reflection absorbtion, absorbtion behind the listening chair, a large polycylindrical diffuser on the front wall between my speakers, and triangular reflective diffusion at the ceiling/wall corner junctions.  I have moved my speakers around searching for the best sounding locations and reduced the height of my equipment rack behind the speakers, what I haven't done (other than with a dB meter, spreadsheet, and test tone disc) is taken response measurement and made adjustments based on those findings. 

After the installation of the polycylindrical diffuser I felt that I was experiencing good imaging and soundstage, I didn't know...

A few days ago I decided (after reading InfernoSTi's, John's, thread on using REW) to take the leap and try it for myself.  I grabbed my son's creative USB DAC, my radioshack meter (only good to 3KHz according to Home Theater Shack) and a few cables.  I calibrated the soundcard and used the calibration plug-in for the meter.  After a bit of trial and error I figured out how to take some basic response measurements.  I took a few measurements and contacted Danny to get his recommendation on how to start adjusting the settings of the V1 servo bass amps.  Danny had me take various readings presented in different ways until he was confident he could make a couple of recommendations.  I implemented his ideas and started taking more measurements.  I continued to make adjustments until I ended up with a graph that was reasonably flat with the exception of a substantial bass bump 70Hz and down, this is what I settled on. 

Last night I was able to sit down and listen, a WOW moment occured with regard to soundstage and imaging.  This is what I told Danny:

"Hey Danny,
Just a note to send you a big thanks for your help with the graphs and adjusting the bass amps on Thursday.  My system has literally taken a huge leap forward in soundstage and imaging, I think it probably was primarily due to getting the phasing right although that is proabably not the whole story.  I got to sit down and listen to my system last night, it was a revelation for me.  The walls of my small room melted away, the soundstage was as big as the recording made it, way outside my walls with obvious depth, I could locate every instrument in nearly every song I played.  I listened to a bunch of Zepp, all the imaging was rock solid with each performer on the stage with the exception of Kashmir, Page was floating all over the stage on that one floating in the air, just everywhere.  I have never heard a stereo system do this or sound as great as my system is sounding right now, I am almost afraid to change anything, total immersion in the soundstage.  I am incredibly happy with it.  Sorry for gushing,  I was up until 4:30 this morning listening.
 
Next time I see these guys point newbys to headphones because they don't have a large space or the room isn't based on the golden ratio I will be calling BS on that, amazing sound in a very small room can be done!!
 
I didn't know a soundsystem could sound this great!
 
Best,
Ed"


Please, no comments on the gushing nature of the email :oops:, I was up until 4:30  :lol:.

The moral of this story is don't put off taking measurments, small changes can make a huge difference!

Best,
Ed

System: Alix/MPD>Tranquility DAC>Bottlehead 2a3 (Stereomour)>GR Research V1s
« Last Edit: 20 Aug 2011, 09:56 pm by ebag4 »

HT cOz

Great write up Ed and very inspirational for another small room guy!

InfernoSTi

Congrats, Ed! 

I, too, was a bit amazed at what I could learn with the measurement tool.  In the end, it let me get somewhere I couldn't without it but still allowed me to "tune by ear" for the last bit of magic. 

I think OB has a LOT to do with making a small room work well, perhaps others can comment.

Great write up, btw....

John

ebag4

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

I also believe that OB has a lot to do with the great sound I am getting.  OB bass, especially when the level can be controlled separately, is well suited for small rooms because it loads the room differently than monpole bass does.  I don't think I would have been able to achieve the results I have in this size room with monopole bass, perhaps someone who has will comment.  I can tell you that the V1 works great in this small room, with plenty of bass to boot!

Best,
Ed

PDR

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Nice Ed....

I like it when you try new things out.... :wink:

The REW is my next step as well, please learn everything so I can constantly bother you with questions.

Every piece of advice you have given me has been excellent ........thanks.

jimdgoulding

Fantastic news, Ed.  As a small room boy myself (12'x15'x8'), I can testify that it's not a liability if the speakers are a good fit and properly placed and that applies to forward radiatiors, also, which is what I own.  I feel ya!

ebag4

Nice Ed....

I like it when you try new things out.... :wink:

The REW is my next step as well, please learn everything so I can constantly bother you with questions.

Every piece of advice you have given me has been excellent ........thanks.
:lol: Thanks Perry, although to be fair I am only passing on things that have been passed to me.  For instance, Dave Elledge told me about the corner ceiling treatments for OB speakers.  Bryan Pape mentioned the polycylindrical diffuser a couple of years ago and then Darrel Hawthorne built one last year which prompted me to give it a shot.  So I am just paying it forward.

I think you will be very glad you gave REW a shot, from my experience getting that servo bass amp tuned in is crucial to gettng the best sound from your V1s.  Of course you have that fantastic room to start with so you might get even better results.

You know the crazy thing is it has been a little over a year since I finished the V1s, I am still getting better performance out of them with various tweaks and adjustments, I am certain I haven't heard them at their best yet!

Best,
Ed

ebag4

Fantastic news, Ed.  As a small room boy myself (12'x15'x8'), I can testify that it's not a liability if the speakers are a good fit and properly placed and that applies to forward radiatiors, also, which is what I own.  I feel ya!

Good to hear that alignments other than OBs can play well in small spaces as well Jim. 

It seems that small rooms not being able to become decent listening spaces is one of the more road weary misnomers making the rounds in audio.

Best,
Ed

Jonathon Janusz

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It is really nice to hear folks getting (and sharing how to get) great results in "real" non-dedicated rooms - and that the room in this case is a smaller one is even more encouraging for folks who in doing research can get caught up in talking themselves out of being able to do something cool.

Ed, the floorplan of your room you posted is inspirational.  I've been sitting here  enjoying my system, but for a while thinking maybe my speakers are a bit too big for my room.  If you can do your thing in your space, there has to be a way for me to figure it out in mine.

Some of the best sound I've had in my home (my current rig does some great things, but isn't quite "there" yet) came from a pair of floorstanders in a 10x15x7.5 room with the speakers placed on the long wall, offset to one side (nearly into a corner), and with the couch less than a foot off the back wall.  I think one of the things that gives "small" rooms a bad reputation can also be seen as a potential strength.  A small room can very easily get overloaded such that it requires a lot of treatment to get under control.  What this ALSO means is that it doesn't take a whole lot of speaker (or a lot of speaker used in a very calculated fashion) to load the room and make a big, rockin' sound that folks with bigger rooms need a lot more horsepower (gear-wise) in a lot of cases to create the same effect.

Rock on and enjoy your ride!

Tyson

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That is awesome Ed!  I have the v2's and a musician friend of mine came by today for the first time.  He had a similar impression to what you report - "The sound wraps around me.".  OB plus EQ, plus room treatments equals bliss.

ebag4

Thanks guys, this has really been an epiphany for me and I have been into audio for quite some time, just not at the level I have been striving to over the last 8 years or so. 

With regard to floorstanders in small rooms, I believe that as long as you can control the bass output and taylor it to the smaller space (either through electronic means or with acoustic treaments) you should have no issue with larger speakers.  With 6 12" drivers and a couple of tweeters in the V1s I certainly qualify for larger speakers in a small room!

Best,
Ed

Rclark

I'm bookmarking this thread and plan to come to you later for advice on how to get set up using that software. Sounds like you're enjoying yourself  :thumb:

nickd

Hey Danny & ED,

One of you two should put a thread togther discussing the adjustments on the 370 PEQ amp as used in the "V" and "Super V". I am getting good sound but could still use a touch of fine tuning. I am also confused about Dannys statement on another thread "200 hz crossover with the amp control set to 90 hz"  :scratch:

With no manual to read, it's a bit of a listen and guess adjustment process. For starters should the crossover switch on the PEQ be set to 12db or 24db per octave?

ebag4

Hi Nickd,
I am certainly no expert but I would have to say that before you can make logical adjustments you should really start by measuring your in room response, then you can see where you need to boost or lower various frequencies.  You can also play with the phasing to determine where your flattest response is.  Doing it by ear as I did it for years works OK if you want good sound that you enjoy, but I have to say as a new convert, measuring will allow you to get the best sound out of your system.  You should start with mesurements and get the room as flat as possible and then you can tune it to your taste from there.  That's my $.02 so take it for what it is worth.

Best,
Ed

BTW, Danny indicated that for the V1s the 12/24dB switch should be set to ext/12.
« Last Edit: 22 Aug 2011, 07:06 pm by ebag4 »

nickd

Thanks Ed,

I figured out the 12/24 switch by ear. The 24 side is very clean sounding but the impact and bloom go away. I switched to the 12db-ext and the bottom end filled in.

I may see if I can borrow a Velodyne bass EQ and use the provided software to measure the low end of the Super V in my room. It would be fun to see how my room measures at my listening seat. 

ebag4

Hey Nick,
If you have a soundcard (built in or USB) with a line input (not mic in) and preamp level output as well as a radio shack meter you can download REW from here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/

This is the down and dirty way to get room measurements, it is what I used.  Note that the radio shack dB meter is said to only be accurate up to 3KHz.

Best,
Ed

Rclark

Wait that's all you need is a meter and the software is free?

...I have a cheap laptop with a headphone out and Microphone in only, can you recommend an inexpensive external soundcard that would do a good a good job at this? I say inexpensive because I would never use it for anything but room measurements...

 I have USB 2.0 if that helps.

I have other fish to fry, system wise, and I am a good ways off from entering into file-based hi-rez audio so don't need anything too fancy yet.

 Thanks Ebag. Great thread  :)

ebag4

This is what I used:

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Labs-Xmod-Sound-Card/dp/B000IZ96LQ

I don't know if it is "approved" but it had the right connections and it calibrated with no issue in REW.  If you go to the REW forum link (see my previous post) I am sure there are numerous recommendations.

Best,
Ed

LarryB

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Quote
My system has literally taken a huge leap forward in soundstage and imaging,
If your system literally took a leap forward, you had better move it back. :)

(The word you were looking for is "figuratively".)

But on a serious note, congratulations on dramatically improving your system.  Enjoy!

Larry

HAL

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Another good USB soundcard is an M-Audio Transit.  Works well here for measurements with CLIO.