Differences between mk1 & mk2 series

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steve f

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Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« on: 20 Aug 2011, 03:51 am »
Hi all,
For some reason, I never looked into Music Reference amps before. What are the differences between mk1 & mk2 amps in the RM 10 series? Thanks.
Steve

hoppy08520

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Re: Differences between RM-10 mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #1 on: 20 Aug 2011, 04:49 pm »
Hello, having done some research on this myself a while back, it's hard to find a thorough answer on the internet, but here's what I did find:

From the Music Reference http://www.ramlabs-musicreference.com/rm10mk2.html site:
Quote
The RM-10 MK2 has improved output transformers which yields lower distortion at the higher frequencies and midrange, resulting in more detail. The RM-10 MK2 also features larger binding posts, which are now 1/2 inch. High quality components (such as Dale resistors) have also been incorporated into the RM-10 MK2.
And from a review at http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/musicreference/rm10.html which seems to say the same thing:
Quote
...transformer/resistor/terminal refinements over the original version...

hoppy08520

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Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #2 on: 20 Aug 2011, 05:19 pm »
There is a hidden page on the RM-10 Mk-1 here. There are no other pages that link to it (i.e. it's an orphan page) and google can't find it, but I happened upon it by guessing the URL:

http://www.ramlabs-musicreference.com/rm10.html

There's also this page on the MK-2 which is easily found:

http://www.ramlabs-musicreference.com/rm10mk2.html

You can read both pages and compare and contrast some of the specs.

There's also this essay from RM on how he designed the RM-10; I'm guessing this was written before the Mk-2:

http://www.ramlabs-musicreference.com/rm10design.html

I'm not exactly sure when the MK-2 started to replace the Mk-1. The 6moons review is from 2005 and says the Mk-2 is "new". The MK-1 started out around 1996 according to http://www.ramlabs-musicreference.com/history.html.

Back when I was considering buying this amp, I decided to look for the MK-2 even though they sell for around $100 - $200 higher than the originals. I decided to go for the MK-2 because RM put better parts into it and also because any MK-2 is newer than the originals, maybe by as much as a decade, and because of that I would hope that any MK-2 should be trouble-free longer.

I wound up buying a RM-9 instead, which ironically is even older than the oldest RM-10.

steve f

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Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #3 on: 20 Aug 2011, 07:17 pm »
Thanks Hoppy.
Steve

rbwalt

Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #4 on: 21 Aug 2011, 01:14 am »
all it takes is a e-mail to roger and your questions will be answered. both 1 and 2 are all hard wired and they are dam good amps from sound quality, build quality / engineering to value for the money and very dependable.

rob.

steve f

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Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #5 on: 21 Aug 2011, 04:58 pm »
I thought that's what forums are for. I checked out the web page. Roger is my kind of designer. I consider reliability important, along with good sound. I usually like to learn a bit about the product before I contact the manufacturer or distributor.

Steve

rbwalt

Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #6 on: 21 Aug 2011, 11:04 pm »
forums are ok but if you want the straight poop go to the manufacturer/ designer for the correct infor.

r.

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #7 on: 24 Sep 2011, 06:11 am »
Any questions yet to be answered?

steve f

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Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #8 on: 3 Oct 2011, 05:41 pm »
No further questions.  My speakers are about 95 DB and an easy 8 Ohm load.  Although they can hit over 115 DB with about 120 Watts and drive me out of the room, I don't listen that loud.  My current tube amps are Quicksilver Mini's, a 25 WPC pair of mono blocks which I have found disappointing. They do play loud enough though.

Steve

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #9 on: 3 Oct 2011, 11:15 pm »
since the 25 watt quicksilvers play loud enough, the RM-10 at 35 watts will have no problem and will sound better.

steve f

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Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #10 on: 4 Oct 2011, 03:23 pm »
No doubt the RM-10would make a great choice. (My other tube amp is a small class A 1.5 WPC single ended OTL, by Transcendent Sound. It sounds wonderful, but is too small for anything short of background music. Their larger OTL's use way too many expensive tubes. I can't rationalize keeping one.)  I am curious after reading in the "integrated amp" thread that you have a OTL in the works. Care to tell us more or is it a long way off?

Steve

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #11 on: 17 Oct 2011, 03:01 am »
No doubt the RM-10would make a great choice. (My other tube amp is a small class A 1.5 WPC single ended OTL, by Transcendent Sound. It sounds wonderful, but is too small for anything short of background music. Their larger OTL's use way too many expensive tubes. I can't rationalize keeping one.)  I am curious after reading in the "integrated amp" thread that you have a OTL in the works. Care to tell us more or is it a long way off?

Steve

OTL amps for 8 and 4 ohm speakers, or speakers that have dips below that, require a large number of tubes and fairly complex circuitry. The SA-4 amplifier I designed for Counterpoint has eight output tubes per channel. With that many tubes mono-blocks are the only way to go and it's not an inexpensive adventure initially or later in tube replacement. It is pretty at night though.

I have recently completed an OTL design for direct driving electrostatic panels at the 5,000 volt range. The circuit is similar to an SEPP or SRPP (those terms seem to be used interchangeably). The resulting amplifier has some very nice qualities, the main one being enormous peak power capability of 2,500 watts with only four output tubes.

Scaling this down in voltage and adding an output transformer of special design I propose to make an amplifier that is class A up to 20 watts, AB up to 40 watts and have a peak output of about 100 watts.

This is what most people really need for listening to music. I rarely measure more than a few watts in most systems played loud. Granted there are some very power-hungry speakers, in large rooms with high SPL listeners and I already make the RM-200 for those. However, most of us are better off with an amp that gives us a good class A power range and lots of peak power for headroom. There is no need to be class A on the peaks.

Amplifier rating since the FTC passed it's testing rules in the mid 70's has skewed amplifier design in a high RMS power direction. I think they got several things wrong, especially the 2/3 power pre-conditioning test that made large heat sinks and heavy power transformers necessary. The pre-conditioning test should be done at a much lower level of 10-20% because that's what music is.

Tentatively I plan to make this a line level integrated with 3 inputs, volume and a power switch. I hope to price it around $1500. It is going to have big tubes with plate caps, because that's where the high peak power is to be found.

 

steve f

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Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #12 on: 19 Oct 2011, 03:25 pm »
Thank you Roger.  I am assuming that the coupling transformer is some type of "auto-former" to ease the tube to speaker match.  This amp sounds like something a lot of us would want. (I am interested)  Is there an approximate introductory date?  This is going to be a product people will buy for second systems that will turn out to be better than the amps in their main systems.

Steve

Ericus Rex

Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #13 on: 19 Oct 2011, 04:27 pm »
Tentatively I plan to make this a line level integrated with 3 inputs, volume and a power switch. I hope to price it around $1500. It is going to have big tubes with plate caps, because that's where the high peak power is to be found.

This sounds awesome!  Will these tubes be new production?  Or NOS?

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: Differences between mk1 & mk2 series
« Reply #14 on: 23 Oct 2011, 03:40 am »
This sounds awesome!  Will these tubes be new production?  Or NOS?

NOS for output and driver tubes. Perhaps a 6922 for the line gain stage. Would anyone want a pre/main separate switch and jacks?