[Rclark]

 Anyone have some comparison talk? I notice that Magnepan's top top top model would be considered low end as far as price when talking about SoundLabs electrostats. I did some reading on their tech from the links provided by SteveFord. Seem really nice!

 Am I to understand that their top of the line far exceeds a 20.1? Or are they overpriced? I think their most expensive model is $40,000 a pair.

[jimdgoulding]

Good question.  Jim Sanders' stats are far less expensive than Sound Labs.  I have a friend using them with three of Duke's subs- tho they go pretty deep already- in a room not much bigger than mine and they sound awesome.  I think the SL's would be happier in a larger space not to mention the 20.1's.     

[bpape]

The difference is that the SL's are a full range panel vs the Maggies that have multiple panels or the Sanders (if I remember correctly) which try to blend an ES panel on top to a dynamic woofer on the bottom a-la Martin Logan.  Personally, I've never heard an ES/Dynamic combo where the woofer can keep up with the panel and doesn't sound discontinuous.

I have not heard the new x.7 series of Maggies so I can't compare there.  The 20.1's are truly something special in my opinion.  One of my dream speakers.  They just need a TON of power and control.

Bryan

[kevinh]

The Sound Labs have a coherence that no other speaker in my experience.

There is no crossover. The Panels are IMO the most accurate transducers available.

The downside of ES speakers is the size required for dynamic range. IIRC the area
of the large panels is >300 sq in.

The Maggies are  nice the SL's are in a different league IMO. Wish I had a pair.

[SteveFord]

I would love a set of SoundLabs but I would need a large house and much better paying job!
I can't foresee either of those things happening...
Two people (John Valin in TAS, a fellow whose name escapes me on the Martin Logan forum) both said that the 3.7s are better than the 20.1s, by the way.
I would still like the SoundLabs!  Where's that lottery ticket that I need so badly?

[thunderbrick]

About 12-13 years ago I had a chance to borrow a used pair of SLs, A-3, B-3, I don't remember the model.  I was shocked to find that, in my untreated room, they sounded almost exactly the same as my (then) stacked DQ-10s with Sequerra ribbons tweeters.  They also set up a HUGE standing wave in the room, and bottomed out on occasion.

Not criticizing the SLs, but at the time I had NO idea about speaker placement or any other setup ideas.  I really wanted to like them so I could justify spending the money, but just couldn't do it.

Must have been the room, because I ended up with ML Quests that sounded like crap in the same room.  I've redone the room and my Maggie 1.6s sound amazing!  Trying to raise the cash for 3.7s.

[Jazzman53]

I would love to hear both or either of those speakers.  I live in Savannah, GA and it kills me that in a town this large there's not a single high-end home audio dealer left.  Perhaps in Atlanta (Buckhead). 

I have an interest and admitted bias in favor of ESL's so I've had a look at the Soundlabs website and designs.  I'm thinking their "distributed resonance" idea (which is not unique to the Soundlabs, BTW) is likely served up with a fair amount of hype.  I mean, I'm sure it sounds good because the physics of a practically massless diaphragm would all but guarantee fantastic attack and miniscule distortion... at least for those frequencies that are above the diaphragm's fundamental resonance(s). 

One reason that I'm so anxious to audition the Soundlabs is that I would have to hear before believing that their panel design (or anyone else's) "eliminates" the problem of the diaphragm resonance, as they claim.   

At its fundamental resonance, the diaphragm decouples and becomes out of sync with the driving impulses imparted by the stators-- the diaphragm is then effectively uncontrolled over the bandwidth of the resonance.  And this resonance is savagely loud (up to 20db).  This is the biggest problem with full range panels.  Some manufacturers even pitch this uncontrolled resonance as a positive when stating frequency response with phrases like: "frequency response: 60 hz resonance to ultrasonic", as, I read on one ad pitch.

I see no mechanism in the Soundlabs' "distributed resonance" scheme that would eliminate or even reduce the diaphragm's fundamental resonance... it merely spreads it out such that, as opposed to a single really loud resonance peak occurring over a narrow frequency band, you then get multiple, less loud resonance peaks occurring over a wider frequency band.  This would be preferable, I think, but you still have uncontrolled diaphragm motions, which are distortion.  The Soundlabs may be the best attempt so far but I would say that on one has yet tamed the diaphragm resonance problem.

This brings up an interesting approach to the resonance problem which I learned about in a recent correspondence with Roger Sanders.  I gathered that Mr. Sanders' research employs laser interferometry and software which "sees" the diaphragm moving in real time, compares its actual motion to the reference music waveform to isolate the resonance motion, and then generates an offsetting mirror image waveform which is fed back to the input of the amplifier to force the diaphram back into sync with the amplifier.  I gathered that this approach works quite well but the equipment to achieve it would need to be substantially reduced in both physical size and cost to make it feasible and marketable.  Pretty Cool, huh?

                             

[kevinh]

If the bands are distributed correctly they produce more efficiency and a 'flat' response. Roger West was the first person to develop this idea for an ES loudspeaker. BTW Roger has been working on ES's for a long time he was involved in designing the KLH ESL and he designed the Janzen ES tweeters.

Someone should check with Duke he has a lot of experience with the SL's, he is still a dealer I believe.

[josh358]

I would love to hear both or either of those speakers.

As you point out, the Soundlabs aren't the only speakers that use a distributed resonance approach. Maggies do to, and Apogees, with their truncated pyramid woofers. I'm sure there are others.

According to John Atkinson, the pair of Soundlabs that Stereophile bought for J. Gordon Holt rang like crazy. The question is whether the ringing sounds bad. If it does, I haven't noticed it, not on Maggies, anyway. (Peter Aczel hated it, but, well, he's Peter Aczel.)

[globalkiwi]

Two people (John Valin in TAS, a fellow whose name escapes me on the Martin Logan forum) both said that the 3.7s are better than the 20.1s, by the way.

I find that hard to believe - esp. in respect to the bass capabilities of the 20.1s - there's quite a big difference in drive size between the two models.

[SteveFord]

Just relaying information.  If you can find a dealer that has both models available I'd say go give a listen and please post your findings.

[globalkiwi]

I understand - & I am as enthusiastic as the next guy about the 3.7s (well, if the next guy wants a pair but doesn't have them yet!) - but claims that they best the 20.1s seem a little over the top to me.  I will try to listen to both if I can (though I hate showroom demos) & report back.

[SteveFord]

The Jonathan Valin comment is on pg. 50 of the July/Aug 2011 TAS so if they make it available online I'll post a link.
His take on it was that the ribbon always stood out on the earlier models (including the 20.1) whereas it's seamless on the 3.7s. 
He did mention that he wanted more bass (Harry Pearson disagreed) so I'm sure that you're right about the 20.1 besting it in that department.
I can't recall who it was on the Martin Logan forum who first steered me to the 3.7s but he said that he was at the CES show and heard them both side by side and preferred the 3.7s.
It's funny, I went to the Martin Logan forum for input on the old CLS line as I was looking at a pair on Audiogon and they ended up steering me to 3.7s!

[TitaniumTroy]

How do SoundLabs sound off axis compared to say, Maggies with true ribbon tweeters?

[globalkiwi]

Steve, No problem, I read the TAS piece already.  I just thought it was an example of "irrational exuberance" on Valin's part.  I do hope they have improved the coherence issue (long a Maggie ribbon speaker bugbear) but I honestly doubt the 3.7s sound better than the 20.1s - esp. with respect to bass performance.  But hey, let's try to organize a shoot-out!  I would be a fun event if we can get pairs of both in the same room.

[rw@cn]

Two people (John Valin in TAS, a fellow whose name escapes me on the Martin Logan forum) both said that the 3.7s are better than the 20.1s, by the way.

If this is true, I would think that a new 20.x will be with us sooner than later. I remember talking to a few Maggie dealers about the 1.7 waiting list and also about a possible new 3.7 and to a man they all said that the 3.7 was years away. 6 months later...

I have been taking a hard look at my room and thinking that with a few additional room treatments and moving a few pieces of furniture, I might be able to think 20.x. After all I had various big Logans in the same room. 

Well if a 20.x can be well positioned in the room, I am sure the 3.7 can. We will see how the discretionary funds (or how does Peter rob Paul  ) look after Christmas.

Thanks Steve.

[oboaudio]

"This combo of speakers is my answer to 'state of the art' bass and integration. Martin Logan Summits (woofers not used) along side of Magneplanar Tympani IV bass panels (modified).

With the addition of the Eminent Technology TRW-17 rotary subwoofer, the bass is stunning in power, impact, and transient response which rivals them all. After 50 years of being an audiophile, this speaker system gives me everything I ever wanted for a truly realistic presentation with depth, imaging, huge sound-stage, low level detail, ambience, and with coherence (all the speakers work extremely well in this area.) My room is 29' long x 19' wide x 11' high cathedral ceiling, with fabulous acoustics (36 ASC bass and mid range traps, GIK bass traps and other diffusers.

All equipment is mounted in a sand filled enclosure on a separate concrete foundation in a control room for superb isolation and is wonderful for access to all wiring. A center Martin Logan electrostatic speaker is used and 8 rear and side speakers provide a realistic surround field that is stunning in giving one the feeling there in the hall (venue) where the recording was made."

[BruceSB]

Regarding ringing in full range electrostatics.
I have read about the phenomena on and off over the years.
I have had full range electrostatics (Acoustat spectra 22s) for more than 20 years and have never heard any "ringing".
I have heard most of the full range electrostatics over this time and have never heard this "ringing".
My friends who own full range electrostatics never mention it.
The planar sites only mention it in passing once in a blue moon.
Maybe some one can tell me what to listen for.
Does this "ringing" occur only in specific and unusual circumstances?
Has it been designed out of electrostatics now or is this just an example of people looking for a small problem to magnify?
Can some one illumine me a little on this one?

[thunderbrick]

I had an vocal group bring over a pre-release CD over to listen on my ML Quests.  There were some cuts that "rang", and some that didn't.  They went back to remix things and that's the last I knew of it.

Wasn't the speakers in this case, it was the mix.

FWIW

[Rclark]

"This combo of speakers is my answer to 'state of the art' bass and integration. Martin Logan Summits (woofers not used) along side of Magneplanar Tympani IV bass panels (modified).

With the addition of the Eminent Technology TRW-17 rotary subwoofer, the bass is stunning in power, impact, and transient response which rivals them all. After 50 years of being an audiophile, this speaker system gives me everything I ever wanted for a truly realistic presentation with depth, imaging, huge sound-stage, low level detail, ambience, and with coherence (all the speakers work extremely well in this area.) My room is 29' long x 19' wide x 11' high cathedral ceiling, with fabulous acoustics (36 ASC bass and mid range traps, GIK bass traps and other diffusers.

All equipment is mounted in a sand filled enclosure on a separate concrete foundation in a control room for superb isolation and is wonderful for access to all wiring. A center Martin Logan electrostatic speaker is used and 8 rear and side speakers provide a realistic surround field that is stunning in giving one the feeling there in the hall (venue) where the recording was made."

wow. I would love to hear your system. Can you describe the rotary sub some?