Anyone compared Auggies to GR Research OB woofers?

gooberdude · « **on:** 7 Aug 2011, 04:43 pm »

I currently use a pair of 15" Hawthorne Auggie's in OB, along with their 15" Sterling co-axs, in a duet style baffle. The Auggie's play in mono through a Rhythmik A370 servo amp.

I want stereo bass & more subs now, and considering going with (4) gr research sw-12-16FR drivers rather than buying a 2nd pair of 15" Auggies.

Has anyone directly compared the 2? The auggie's never fail to impress, but i've been listening to a lot of boxed bass lately (at other guys houses) & miss hearing the lower notes in my home. Going off the user reports & website info for the sw-12-16FR, they can play quite low.

Brian Ding with rhythmik said its no issue to get my A370 amp modd'd to work with the gr servo subs, and buying a 2nd rhythmik A370 amp is the only solid decision i've made. These amps play best into 4 ohm loads.

thanks in advance for any input or experience you may have.

matt

Tyson · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 Aug 2011, 06:25 pm »

I've heard very good full range OB speakers (but not the auggies), and I have to say that servo sub OB bass is in a different category all together. Think how big the difference is between box bass and OB bass. That's about how much difference there is between normal OB bass and servo OB bass.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #2 on:** 7 Aug 2011, 07:23 pm »

Room dimensions, musical taste, and love of bass will likely drive the decision.

I have been using OB bass in my main system now for over 6 years, and like it enough to live with the compromises (mostly reduced lowest output vs the ported beast in my HT).

I have heard a Rythmic servo sealed sub, and thought it was a good sub, but was not blown away by it - it was in a different room, with a different system though, so hard to compare to what I live with.

I have not heard, but wonder about the OB setup that Danny has designed, sure seems like a lot of happy folks out there.

Tyson · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Aug 2011, 07:29 pm »

Yes, you are right about the ultimate output at the very lowest frequencies - you can't get by w/one driver for an OB sub. Even 2 is not really enough, IMO. But the way Danny has the Super V's setup, with 2 OB subs per side (for 4 total), give quite a bit of output down low. So, the upside of OB bass is better quality, the downside is more drivers are needed to get the same quantity.

ebag4 · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Aug 2011, 07:48 pm »

Matt,
I have owned Augies and currently own the GR Research V1s. I did not own them at the same time so I was never able to do an A-B comparison.

When I was running the Augies I only had one per side, each had a dedicated 100 watt amp.
This is the speaker I ran with the single Augies:

As you can see the Augie baffle was basically flat with sides that curved in slightly. Of course the V1s have a pair of 12" servo subs per side in an "H" frame alignment.

The bass output of the V1s is perfect for music IMO. I loved the bass of the single Augies but they did not have the dynamic impact the GRs do, I can't say with any certainity if a pair of Augies with equivalent power applied would have the dynamic impact of the V1s bass section or not. I found both solutions highly musical. Please keep in mind the limited power I had to the Augies compared to the V1s as well as the different number of drivers and different alignments, it is not an apple to apples comparison.

With that said, my recommendation since you have already decided to pick up another amp would be to pick up another pair of used Augies (typically available to about $200/pair), put them in a simple baffle and locate them as close to you current Augies as possible. If that doesn't float your boat then sell the Augies and pick up the GRs.

This probably doesn't help answer your question but nothing is black and white in audio. You are close to an Augie solution today, it would be quite easy to determine if it works for you, if not I am quite certain the V1 solution will make you happy.

Best,
Ed

gooberdude · « **Reply #5 on:** 8 Aug 2011, 02:06 am »

Thanks for the input guys. Ed, you make nice speakers. damn!

It does make sense to find a pair of used auggie's. They work so well with the huge co-ax's.

I'm making new baffles soon and trying to avoid stacking 3-15" woofers vertically. gr's compact design is tempting.

going the gr sub route, i'd be spending about $400 more. that's a pittance though if the servo subs play as low as reported & are musical.

ebag4 · « **Reply #6 on:** 8 Aug 2011, 02:39 am »

Thanks Matt.

I am not trying to push you in one direction or the other, I believe you will have great bass with either solution.

Regarding the Augies, I know just about everyone on Hawthorne Audio has the Augies on a flat baffle, I agree that a flat baffle with little or no sides is best for the coaxial, but you might consider putting the Augies in a "W" alignment, this would probably allow you to save 8 or so inches in height at the cost of depth. Of course a pair of Augies in a "W" alignment may end up being too much of a good thing, possibly resulting in boomy bass if the depth is too great. Experimentation would be key, you might post a question on HA asking if anyone has mounted the Augies this way (looks like tuba Mark looked into it, don't know if he actually tried it, http://hawthorneaudio.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3011&p=41887&hilit=augies+in+w+alignment#p41887). The advantage to using the Augies is that they were made for the SI/SSI coaxes.

The GR servos do play very deep and are incredibly musical as well. I believe that a big part of the fantastic sound Danny has pulled from these drivers is in the fact that he has them playing up to about 200Hz in the V series speakers, they are simply fantastic in this range. With the SSI you will probably only be using them up to 60/80 Hz or so, they can certainly do that with ease, but so can the Augies.

I love the bass in the V1s, I don't see myself listening to anything else in a 2 channel system as I can't imagine anything better.

Best,
Ed

gooberdude · « **Reply #7 on:** 8 Aug 2011, 10:24 pm »

That's a lot of food for thought, thanks!!

Seems like most hawthorne customers line up all the drivers in similar fashion. The 1st thought that entered my pea sized brain is that since the auggie's support the co-axs in a way that's atypical for a sub, that having all drivers flush to one another may help with sonics.

The W shaped arrangements look cool & keep the vertical height down, i just wonder if that set-up is more geared for sub bass & would hamper accurate imaging. My current speaker set-up does not image as well with the auggie's turned off and supposedly having stereo auggie bass enhances the 3-D imaging even more.

Very true in that I probably cannot go wrong in either direction. I'm not looking to jump from one mfgr or another (i'm a Hawthorne guy!) but it'd be silly to be into OB designs & ignore the newish servo technology. My new home has 15' ceilings & lots of volume. All my previous homes/condo's had normal 8' ceilings...

thanks again for all the help guys.

matt

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Aug 2011, 05:57 pm »

Matt, Before you buy anything, come to my house first.

Bob

PDR · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Aug 2011, 06:19 pm »

Wasnt there some talk a while ago about Danny working with Darrel on some Hawthorne servos?

Or did that fall to the wayside.....

gooberdude · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Aug 2011, 06:22 pm »

Bob, anytime! i can't wait - srsly

A servo Auggie would be dope.

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Aug 2011, 08:21 pm »

PDR, Yes Darrel and Danny has plans to work together on a project. Not sure where that stands at this point.

Matt, I'm available any weekend (pretty much). I should have the RiPole finished soon and had plans on having you over when Darrel and Jeff come over anyway. There's also a new fella in town that wants to hear my toys. I could get you two together as well.

Bob

gooberdude · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 Aug 2011, 04:53 am »

Bob, i'm around most any weekend. I want to hear the ripole & meet Darrel too of course. Just got a new cd by a band called Battles. It might be fun in the cave, at high volumes.

Do I take a left at Six Flags, or what?

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 Aug 2011, 12:20 pm »

That's one way to get there.... 63051

Bob in St. Louis · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Aug 2011, 11:00 pm »

By the way, I certanly hope I didn't discourage anybody from posting in the thread.

Sorry for the distraction.

Bob

gooberdude · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Aug 2011, 11:20 pm »

No worries.

We started off on the OB bass journey some yrs ago. I'm stoked that the auggie's are still regarded as serious contenders. Hard to go wrong with bulletproof Eminence 15" drivers engineered for OB.

feedback or experience from anyone is welcome

matevana · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Aug 2011, 09:37 pm »

You may want to also consider Eminence Lab-12's. They are extremely well made, the baskets are absolutely silent and offer more output than most 12" drivers that play as low. Total Q is a little on the low side, but nothing some active comp cant address. I had a chance to try them in my 3-way, all dipole system over the weekend and was very impressed (replacing the current Dayton RSS315-HF). Since they are much more efficient than the Daytons, I could easily live with only one per side. They are powered by a single Rhthmik Audio plate amp (non servo) and sound great crossed at 150 or below.

gooberdude · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Aug 2011, 11:04 pm »

Is your call sign from Teavana? I spend waaaayyyy too much $ there, a few times a year

I tried to replace coffee w/matevana, but the bean keeps calling me back....

My sub amp now is a non-servo Rhythmik plate amp. It powers both my 15" auggie's, but in mono. Was the system you just heard run the same way? A sub on each baffle, but playing summed mono?

Thanks for the suggestion.

matevana · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Aug 2011, 11:54 pm »

Quote from: gooberdude on 18 Aug 2011, 11:04 pm

Is your call sign from Teavana? I spend waaaayyyy too much $ there, a few times a year I tried to replace coffee w/matevana, but the bean keeps calling me back....

My sub amp now is a non-servo Rhythmik plate amp. It powers both my 15" auggie's, but in mono. Was the system you just heard run the same way? A sub on each baffle, but playing summed mono?

Thanks for the suggestion.

yup yup. I stole my SN from teavana, lol. The system I described is actually my current system. It's a 3-way with a 12" Dayton RSS315-HF on the bottom, an 8" Usher 8137 for the mids and a ScanSpeak 15F for the upper mids/highs. It's the best dipole I have ever built. The top two drivers are crossed passively at 1800Hz and powered by a nice NAD integrated amp. The Bottom driver is powered by a single plate amp and run mono through the Rhythmik plate crossed at 120Hz. Over the weekend I had the opportunity to swap the Dayton drivers for the Lab-12's and lived with them for 2 days. I was favorably impressed. Lots of quality low output with the single plate amp, despite the mono configuration. I believe LF sounds lose most of their directivity around 80Hz, so I dont feel like its too much of a compromise. I was previously using a crown power amp in stereo for the low end, and enjoy the Rhythmik more. It sounds well damped when I run the dual 12's in series, with the amp seeing an 8ohm load. The Lab-12's are actually rated at 6 ohms and I was able to run them in parallel with the plate, w/o too much heat build-up. They are also about 5-6dB more efficient than the Daytons in an in-house measurement.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Aug 2011, 02:11 am »

Tyson pretty much nailed it in his response. There is no question about it.

Quote from: PDR on 9 Aug 2011, 06:19 pm

Wasnt there some talk a while ago about Danny working with Darrel on some Hawthorne servos?

Or did that fall to the wayside.....

Darrel and I were discussing a project that involved taking his 15" coxail driver, opening up the tweeter, designing are real crossover for it that addressed it from an acoustic output perspective, and letting it set over a pair of 15" woofers designed specifically for open baffle applications and using servo control.

I even had a 15" version of my SW-12-16FR made. Here are some pics of it.

By comparison here is my SW-12-16FR. The dust cap is the same size. The surround is the same, and all of the motor structure and voice coil is the same.

The low Fs and high Qts of that 15 would let it reach a -3db of 23Hz before even adding gain from the amp. And with the added servo control it could have played flat to 15 or 16Hz with no problem and with extreme control.

However, even though my supplier was willing to drop his minimum from 500 units down to 200 units, it was still a lot more money that Darrel was willing to invest at that time. Those are not cheap woofers.

Maybe one of these days...