[Diamond Dog]

Interesting conversation, James. Thanks.

So here's to choices and the freedom to choose!

And folks, if you can find it in your hearts tonight, please... before you go to bed, say a prayer for the marketers...

D.D.

[vegasdave]

Good points DD 

It is just that for example; if we define an amplifiers ability to pass the input on and do nothing but amplify it with as few changes as state of the art allows, anything beyond that are questions of marketing - how do we tell our story and to whom do we sell and how.  All important obviously but at some point I am asking our customers to realize that accurate signal reproducing is our goal first and foremost - after that we have to make decisions that involve the ability to market the product. Over the years I have had many so called very expensive state of the art amps through our facilities that are very poor representatives of the accuracy goal.

So two comments:

1. In my opinion you can spend much more money on an amplifier than Bryston but it will not be more accurate if state of the art signal reproduction is the goal.

2. I realize people buy things for many more reasons than the task at hand - my famous saying around the factory is "people do not buy a Rolex to tell the time"

james

 

[sebrof]

1. In my opinion you can spend much more money on an amplifier than Bryston but it will not be more accurate if state of the art signal reproduction is the goal.

james

Which Bryston? Each at its respective pricepoint?
If that's the case then one model down from the TOL Bryston and you can do better, but any more outlay than the TOL Bryston and you're wasting your money?
I guess my point is the same as others have made - Where is the line where any more money is a waste. I say there is none. If a $29K phono is a waste, then is a $10K? a $5K?
One could argue that a $29K phono is a waste if it's hooked to a $200 table. But to simply say that a $29K phono is a waste of money just seems odd to me. Remember, how it sounds has not been mentioned. I don't think anyone here has heard it.

[James Tanner]

Which Bryston? Each at its respective pricepoint?
If that's the case then one model down from the TOL Bryston and you can do better, but any more outlay than the TOL Bryston and you're wasting your money?
I guess my point is the same as others have made - Where is the line where any more money is a waste. I say there is none. If a $29K phono is a waste, then is a $10K? a $5K?
One could argue that a $29K phono is a waste if it's hooked to a $200 table. But to simply say that a $29K phono is a waste of money just seems odd to me. Remember, how it sounds has not been mentioned. I don't think anyone here has heard it.

Hi,

Yes ...I think choosing the correct amp is like choosing the correct engine in a car - the correct amp for the correct system and the correct engine for the specific car. 

The 4B in the correct system is no better or worst that the 28B in the correct system.  The 4B in the wrong system could be a disaster.

james

[PRELUDE]

 Wow!, I post this and it turns into the good conversation.I cannot be less agree with James and Peter. :And my piont  was what exactly  Peter said.I have no problem with the price but I want to know where the money goes.It is really interesting that the hi-fi is compared to cars.But remember that all the cars over $200.000 are pre sold and the buyer never had the chance to see or drive the car.Now would you buy a $10,000 speaker without try it before?
I like this hobby and I do not want to be the only one of few who has good set up.My wish is for all.And not just this phono but anything like this, just does not make me a better person in this hobby.
Remember the 70s and 80s where hi-fi really had the meaning and more people could enjoy it and this number is droping everyday.Why?

[PRELUDE]

Hi,

Yes ...I think choosing the correct amp is like choosing the correct engine in a car - the correct amp for the correct system and the correct engine for the specific car. 

The 4B in the correct system is no better or worst that the 28B in the correct system.  The 4B in the wrong system could be a disaster.

james

Agree again James The 28b is an excellent amp with no doubt.But for a guy like me who always using a active system would be the waste.So the 7b and two 4b is a best choice.

[Rapt]

1. In my opinion you can spend much more money on an amplifier than Bryston but it will not be more accurate if state of the art signal reproduction is the goal.

2. I realize people buy things for many more reasons than the task at hand - my famous saying around the factory is "people do not buy a Rolex to tell the time" james

         I'll have to use that line in the future 

[James Tanner]

Hi James - I gotta ask a question based on your statement here.  Are you saying that if cost was of no concern and any "state-of-the-art" reliable parts were made available to Bryston - there would be no way to bring Bryston amps closer to the theoretical perfectly accurate amplfication of signal?  I'm just assuming that with each of the amps out there there must be some economics built into the engineering that would bring you as close to your goal of accurate signal reproduction BUT lmiting the overall cost?  So given the parameters of power dilivery and aplication for a 4B-SST/2 there is no current way using state of the art technology to improve it's accurateness?  Putting in more expensive caps or a more sizeable power transformer?   

Correct if we could make it perform better we would. I know it sounds strange given the cost of gear these days but honestly we have tried and continue to try different methods to improve the performance (Linearity) of the Bryston amps. Also why would you put a bigger transformer in a 4B ---  that's why the 7B and 14B exist? 

I would say generally, looking back, about every five years or so a new technology allows for a measurable and observable performance upgrade and the opportunity to move the performance envelope forward. We use a lot of custom parts as we can then control their reliability and performance as well as predictability in the circuits and we have tried 'exotic' parts that cost many more times our regular parts but so far they do not seem to offer better performance.

So the short answer is we are always looking to increase the performance envelope of our products and if we see that some idea works better than another we adopt it - if not we move on to other ideas.

james

[alexone]

James,

maybe a bit out of topic....but could you show us some pics during the building process of your new speakers??

al.

[1oldguy]

James,

maybe a bit out of topic....but could you show us some pics during the building process of your new speakers??

al.

Plus 1

[SoundGame]

Correct if we could make it perform better we would. I know it sounds strange given the cost of gear these days but honestly we have tried and continue to try different methods to improve the performance (Linearity) of the Bryston amps. Also why would you put a bigger transformer in a 4B ---  that's why the 7B and 14B exist? 

I would say generally, looking back, about every five years or so a new technology allows for a measurable and observable performance upgrade and the opportunity to move the performance envelope forward. We use a lot of custom parts as we can then control their reliability and performance as well as predictability in the circuits and we have tried 'exotic' parts that cost many more times our regular parts but so far they do not seem to offer better performance.

So the short answer is we are always looking to increase the performance envelope of our products and if we see that some idea works better than another we adopt it - if not we move on to other ideas.

james

Wow James - that is a powerful statement - to say the least!  I don't believe you have a statement that is that clear about your mission but if not, this should be there.

So - I guess that's why you pretty well never hear about people modding there Bryston amps to get more out of them.  It's always better just to ship them back to Bryston to get the pro's to take care of implementing the "best available" parts. 

[James Tanner]

OK will try to get some speaker shots.

james

[James Tanner]

Wow James - that is a powerful statement - to say the least!  I don't believe you have a statement that is that clear about your mission but if not, this should be there.

So - I guess that's why you pretty well never hear about people modding there Bryston amps to get more out of them.  It's always better just to ship them back to Bryston to get the pro's to take care of implementing the "best available" parts. 

Hi SoundGame,

I do not want to come off sounding like we know everything there is to know about amplifier design - we do not.  We just do the best we can with what we know after doing this for these 40 plus years.  Other companies may feel differently and of course thier products reflect their beliefs.

james

[SoundGame]

Hi SoundGame,

I do not want to come off sounding like we know everything there is to know about amplifier design - we do not.  We just do the best we can with what we know after doing this for these 40 plus years.  Other companies may feel differently and of course thier products reflect their beliefs.

james

Understood James - there are always trade secrets and copyrights, as well. 

You've said a couple very monumental things - simply that:

1. Bryston uses the best parts and engineering it has available (that it knows of) in it's amplifiers to achieve the goal of perfect linearity and accurateness.

2. The are no other amplifier products known to Bryston out there that are more accurate / linear.

These claims do say something about Bryston.  That Bryston stives for the best in all it's amplifiers (regardless of model) and that when you're buying one you don't need to worry about what compromises have been taken - as there have simply been NONE.

I'm an avid reader of The Absolute Sound and some claims have been made in that magazine about amps with perfect linearity and transparency.  Those being from the company Soulution.  But they are astronomically priced amps and supposedly very complex in their design - I believe 3000 parts in an amp. 

Though you've said you don't know everything about amps - you have also said in regards to the competition that: "...it will not be more accurate if state of the art signal reproduction is the goal".  I'd interpret this to mean that to Bryston's knowledge, and all the gear that I'm sure you've heard at the shows - nothing beats Bryston in terms of transparency and accurateness.  That says a lot! 

[ricko01]

We use a lot of custom parts as we can then control their reliability and performance as well as predictability in the circuits and we have tried 'exotic' parts that cost many more times our regular parts but so far they do not seem to offer better performance.

james

I think this is part of the "jewelry" aspect.... for example laser cut capacitors (dont know if you use them James or not) and other exotic and expensive parts are de rigueur in the ultra high end.

And there is some expectation (on the part of reviewers and consumers) that the use of these parts will improve the sound (especially noise levels) but as James experience highlights... we will never know... as the manufacturers dont provide measurements and subjective descriptions of different component combinations.

Of course the  manufacturers have every right to "stuff" their components with whatever parts they want but we will never know at what point performance levels off and part bragging rights starts.

To use another car analogy, sticking a free flow exhaust with some fancy headers, allloy wheels, racing seats and steering wheel on a Toyota Camry are all custom parts but they wont make it corner any better.

Peter

[werd]

Correct if we could make it perform better we would. I know it sounds strange given the cost of gear these days but honestly we have tried and continue to try different methods to improve the performance (Linearity) of the Bryston amps. Also why would you put a bigger transformer in a 4B ---  that's why the 7B and 14B exist? 

I would say generally, looking back, about every five years or so a new technology allows for a measurable and observable performance upgrade and the opportunity to move the performance envelope forward. We use a lot of custom parts as we can then control their reliability and performance as well as predictability in the circuits and we have tried 'exotic' parts that cost many more times our regular parts but so far they do not seem to offer better performance.

So the short answer is we are always looking to increase the performance envelope of our products and if we see that some idea works better than another we adopt it - if not we move on to other ideas.

james

Like pure crystal ?

 

i know i know

[ricko01]

Like manna from heaven.. this on the stereophile web site aligns with my previous comments regarding every man and his dog is on the high end manufacturing bandwagon.... with some magic design formula and a nice jewelry look.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/passion-magic-exception

Whom do they think will buy this?...at $33K?

So much of the disgust that we inside the hi-end fish bowl have over high prices is based on stuff like this... unproven companies with unproven products hawking high priced components.

You can bitch about high prices from the hi end "establishment" but the hi end is the only luxury product segment that has this kind of thing happening.

You dont get no-name companines selling luxury watches for example. Only companies with a long history in watch design and manufacturing can command high  prices.

Peter

[Chromisdesigns]

If there is a market for solid gold or silver enclosures, as a Jewelers of America certified bench jeweler, I would be happy to offer a quote on such a project...gemstone encrustation would, of course, be additional!   

Regards,

Bob

[skunark]

It's interesting how some can complain about spending hundreds of dollars on audio gear and consider spending thousands as ridiculous.  Then those that spend thousand of dollars on audio gear consider tens of thousand as ridiculous. And for those that can spend tens of thousand on audio gear considers hundreds of thousand as ridiculous.   And yet those who buys the 'ridiculous' audio gear are very happy with what they have.

[timind]

And yet those who buys the 'ridiculous' audio gear are very happy with what they have.

Curious, how do you know they are happy?