[Atlplasma]

Great article at The Atlantic. I particularly like how the authors describes the loudness "problem."

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/07/the-loudness-wars-is-musics-noisy-arms-race-over/242293/

[Rclark]

 Most people can't tell the difference because most people listen to music on very cheap earbuds or very cheap, small, self powered speakers.

 We have hope with the new phenomenon of hi-rez.

 Actually, truthfully, it's the HDTV that saves audio. It's the HDTV and it's continued install base that will make people curious about higher quality sound.

 Otherwise most people think of sound quality as a complete non-issue. As long as there is music they can hear, most people do not care that it can sound better. ESPECIALLY young people. They really don't care.

 It's sad.

[Bob in St. Louis]

That's a great article. Thanks for posting!

Bob

[neekomax]

Most people can't tell the difference because most people listen to music on very cheap earbuds or very cheap, small, self powered speakers.

 We have hope with the new phenomenon of hi-rez.

 Actually, truthfully, it's the HDTV that saves audio. It's the HDTV and it's continued install base that will make people curious about higher quality sound.

 Otherwise most people think of sound quality as a complete non-issue. As long as there is music they can hear, most people do not care that it can sound better. ESPECIALLY young people. They really don't care.

 It's sad.

Hmmm. Your observation that HDTV may help promote better quality audio is an interesting one. I wonder if there's any real evidence of it.

However, I think that the idea that the younger generation doesn't care about sound at all is probably a bit of a reach. I bet the percentage who care/notice how things sound is the same for 20 year olds as it is for 40 year olds. The 40 year olds just have a bit more money to do something about it  .

For example, look at the fad of young people walking around everywhere with Beats headphones. Those are (relatively) expensive mid/hi fi cans, man. It's a lot about the look, but they're getting good sound along with it.

[wushuliu]

Hmmm. Your observation that HDTV may help promote better quality audio is an interesting one. I wonder if there's any real evidence of it.

However, I think that the idea that the younger generation doesn't care about sound at all is probably a bit of a reach. I bet the percentage who care/notice how things sound is the same for 20 year olds as it is for 40 year olds. The 40 year olds just have a bit more money to do something about it  .

For example, look at the fad of young people walking around everywhere with Beats headphones. Those are (relatively) expensive mid/hi fi cans, man. It's a lot about the look, but they're getting good sound along with it.

Hmm, dunno, from what I've read the Beats just reinforce Rclark's point - their sound quality does not remotely match the price tag, unless all you care about is bass...

[neekomax]

Hmm, dunno, from what I've read the Beats just reinforce Rclark's point - their sound quality does not remotely match the price tag, unless all you care about is bass...

Point taken. I couldn't say, I haven't listened to them. But I'm sure they're better than Apple earbuds.

Anyway, I still don't think there's any evidence that says people of a certain age care less about sound than others.

[Diamond Dog]

Point taken. I couldn't say, I haven't listened to them. But I'm sure they're better than Apple earbuds.

Anyway, I still don't think there's any evidence that says people of a certain age care less about sound than others.

I think that previous generations were conditioned to think that having a quality "hi-fi" was aspirational and this was reflected in the advertising and popular culture of the day. Now, it's portability and the ability to assert your individualism via personalizing your music library and taking it with you wherever you go which is in vogue. In the minds of many younger people ( IamnotgettingoldIamnotgettingoldIamnotg ettingoldIam...) these are the priorities as opposed than high-quality playback. The ever-increasing prices of quality gear and the decreasing likelihood that young people would ever be exposed to it anyway as dealer networks collapse don't help draw new people into the fold either but I seriously doubt that "audiophile-quality sound" is a big deal for a lot of young people today. It's up to the audio industry to change that but I think they are like the actual music industry- trapped in their outdated paradigm like a prehistoric fly trapped in amber and doomed to fight over an ever-shrinking and ever-aging demographic like starving seagulls fighting over a dead fish washed up on the beach. I mean for crissakes, look at all the hoople-headed excitement in another circle over a manufacturer updating their badly-dated website. In 2011? That's like getting excited over the fact that you're still breathing. And they wonder why they can't get young people interested in high-end audio...

D.D.

[neekomax]

I think that previous generations were conditioned to think that having a quality "hi-fi" was aspirational and this was reflected in the advertising and popular culture of the day. Now, it's portability and the ability to assert your individualism via personalizing your music library and taking it with you wherever you go which is in vogue. In the minds of many younger people ( IamnotgettingoldIamnotgettingoldIamnotg ettingoldIam...) these are the priorities as opposed than high-quality playback. The ever-increasing prices of quality gear and the decreasing likelyhood that young people would ever be exposed to it anyway as dealer networks collapse don't help draw new people into the fold either but I seriously doubt that "audiophile-quality sound" is a big deal for a lot of young people today. It's up to the audio industry to change that but I think they are like the actual music industry- trapped in their outdated paradigm like a prehistoric fly trapped in amber and doomed to fight over an ever-shrinking and ever-aging demographic like starving seagulls fighting over a dead fish washed up on the beach. I mean for crissakes, look at all the hoople-headed excitement in another circle over a manufacturer updating their badly-dated website. In 2011? That's like getting excited over the fact that you're still breathing. And they wonder why they can't get young people interested in high-end audio...

D.D.

That is one beautiful post, mixed zoological metaphors and all. Ahhh, the audiophilic mosquito-gull. Fly on you crazy diamond (dog). Well said, can't say there's anything to argue with there.

Perhaps the paradigms aren't so different in reality; they're both rooted in the understanding of how much people love their music, love the physical and emotional experience of it, and how much they want to honor it and make it central in their personal lives.

The iPod did give people a sense of freedom from the restrictions of physical media. It made the access of music almost a cybernetic reflex, so different from the ritual and weight of discs and tonearms and turning down the lights. This new type of relationship with music, to me, does not preclude or supplant the perceived value of sound quality. As bandwidth increases in all digital realms, we'll see a convergence of resolution and accessabilty, not an abandonment of one for the other, as we seem to have presently. People don't accept slow internet just because they can get it on their phone. It has to be fast (ie high bandwidth) and ubiquitous. The same, I believe, will hold true for music.

Now, whether the current audio industry has the chops and vision to be able to provide the tools and devices that will be the manifestation of the hybridized third age, that is certainly not clear.

But if there's money to be made, someone will find a way to deliver.

That, or I'll see you on EarbudCircle.

[firedog]

People who listen to music while walking down a city street or in any other noisy environment like volume compressed sound b/c they can't hear musical details anyway in those environments and b/c it reduces the amount they have to play with the volume control - soft passages can't be heard in those situations, so softer aspects of music are volume compressed to be louder.

People of any age who listen in a better physical/equipment environment will prefer less volume compression, but first they have to be shown what it is and what is the effect it has on sound. Young people who are exposed to this knowledge also want to hear better recordings. Haven't you noticed how many young people like vinyl?

[Diamond Dog]

People who listen to music while walking down a city street or in any other noisy environment like volume compressed sound b/c they can hear musical details anyway in those environments and b/c it reduces the amount they have to play with the volume control - soft passages can't be heard in those situations, so softer aspects of music are volume compressed to be louder.

People of any age who listen in a better physical/equipment environment will prefer less volume compression, but first they have to be shown what it is and what is the effect it has on sound. Young people who are exposed to this knowledge also want to hear better recordings. Haven't you noticed how many young people like vinyl?

A) They aren't just listening to compressed music in noisy environments via iPods. That is the music delivery vehicle of choice. Period. Absolute marketing triumph. And they aren't listening to compressed audio because they decided to so that they could better hear musical detail in noisy environments. That's all that the recorded music industry turns out for them to listen to. No choice is offered so no choice can be made. End result - generations of listeners who are conditioned to accept this level of sound quality just like the generations before them were conditioned to aspire to "hi-fi" music delivery systems as part of an upwardly-mobile lifestyle.

B) Who's gonna expose them to higher-quality sound? How many serious audio dealers are left where you live? And who says that young people even care about being exposed to it? Talk to them. They couldn't care less - it's how old people listen to music....

C) How many young people like vinyl? A lot less than you apparently think - check out the actual sales figures. Even digital download sales are down, never mind vinyl. The "big vinyl resurgence" is a myth propagated in audiophile hot-houses like AudioCircle. Vinyl is a niche. High-end audio is a niche...

Am I a pessimist? No, just a realist. It is what it is. Audio manufacturers have been left behind as the world has moved on and ultimately they've made themselves dispensible. I was reading where a well-known audio manufacturer was talking about how they had managed to get some exposure in Rolling Stone like it was some kind of breakthrough in reaching out to the younger demographic. Do you know the demographic of Rolling Stone readers? Me. And I already own a whack of their gear. And I am not twenty years old, my friend. Those are the people these guys should be trying to reach.

D.D.
 

[firedog]

Diamond Dog-

Wow, what an over reaction to my post. I was just trying to point out some of the factors involved in the situation. And yes the type of music listened to and the delivery method/listening environment effects recording and production methods -always has, since the beginning of recorded music. So is the iPod technology the only factor involved in causing the volume wars - clearly not. But it is a factor.

And it's not just among young people. Even boomers with no time to spare use an iPod as their source and will stick with lower level fidelity -even when they do own a good system. It's just convenience.

Yes, I realize that young people don't have lots of opportunity to be exposed to good sound.  Nor did I say that vinyl is becoming the medium of choice among young people. But the vinyl resurgence, though small, does exist. I actually have a lot of exposure to 20 somethings from all over the world, and lots of them are aware of vinyl, and like it. Doesn't mean it will become their sole listening method. It does show that the vinyl resurgence isn't just among baby boomers. And just so you know, those that do buy vinyl buy used records, and those sales don't show up in the industry figures you seem to think of as a "killer statistic".

I personally have found that both younger and older people who are exposed to good sound for the first time have their eyes opened and realize they are missing something. Physical discs are dying as a medium. Virtually all music will be data files soon. And the only way to make money from music will to be to have niche products that give some added value that people are willing to pay for. So as these 20 somethings grow older, settle down,  and become more affluent, SOME of them will also look for better quality music reproduction - better playback equipment, better lifestyle choices (such as quality multi-room setups), and better source material. If you haven't noticed, there is already starting to be a market for music "with no added compression". Not saying that will become the common mode, but it will grow and become one of the many niche markets. Nothing wrong with niche markets. The future will be niche markets. High quality will be one of them.

[Diamond Dog]

Hi Firedog : Sorry if my response came across as a little strident - it wasn't meant that way.  I just find that "audiophiles" have a tendency to overstate the size and importance of "the vinyl resurgence" ( even including the trade in used vinyl, it's a pittance and you know it is ) or hi-rez ( at least at this stage there is is real lack of interest in providing a big selection of this on the part of vendors ) or for that matter the hobby as a whole. If you ever get out to the local audio shops which still remain in your area, look around you and you'll see less and less inventory and fewer and fewer customers. My take is that as far as some of the new product categories like digital media players etc., most are being sold to existing customers re-vamping their systems as opposed to new people coming in to get started in the hobby. Talk to the owners and ask them how business is going and see what they say...Sure you may see a few young people take an interest in higher-quality sound but in nowhere near the numbers that the industry once saw. And the industry doesn't seem to know how to get a renewed interest in quality audio going. So yeah, it's a niche and no, there's nothing wrong with niches but the niche is contracting...A quality home audio system was once considered desirable and worth the expenditure by a comparatively large percentage of the population. Now it's more of a curiousity. The move to lower sound quality ( loudness wars etc. ) by the recorded music industry is a major contributing factor ( obviously there are several others ) to this shift in mindset. It's gonna be tough to shift it back because the interest has been largely extinguished.

And just in case I'm coming across a little forcefully:    

D.D.

[Bob in St. Louis]

A quality home audio system was once considered desirable and worth the expenditure by a comparatively large percentage of the population. Now it's more of a curiousity.

What brought me "here" (to this hobby) was the desire for a very nice home theater rig. During my trek, I also discovered that music can sound good. As a music love for the past few decades, I had never HEARD music. Once I got my home theater rig up and running, I began to consentrate less and less on the 140", and more and more on the music.
I would have never guessed my HT rig would have a tube amp in it. 

Maybe, just maybe.....since home theaters are gaining some attention, that those folks will happen to pop some tunes in their Bluray player and get the same taste I did.

just maybe.

Bob

[doug s.]

don't forget -  high end audio was a niche market, even 40 years ago...

doug s.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Quality will always be a niche.

[timztunz]

Quality will always be a niche.

Tru dat