To get Good tube sound you must.......

geowak · « **on:** 16 Jun 2011, 05:34 pm »

Tube Lovers..a question

Never had a Tube amp and was wondering about that "great tube sound". I had a tube preamp and it did not seem to give such a different sound (to my ears) as it was connected to a SS amp.

So the question is this. Can a tube preamp give a SS amp that "great tube sound"? Or do you really need a good tube amp.

What's the story?

rollo · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Jun 2011, 05:46 pm »

Depends, on the amp preamp combo. A rich tubey pre can give you a closer glimpse of "tubed" sound [ Audible Illusions]. A neutral tubed pre say a C.A.T. and a neutral SS amp may not.
Saying that a tubed Pre and a SS amp can and will satify most SS guys. It just adds enough of the flavor of the tubes to satify.
There are many classic synergies of tubed and SS gear. Knowing what speakers you have would narrow that arena. Hope that helps.

charles

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Jun 2011, 05:47 pm »

My two cents are:
As is know, in a tube power amp to get the old-fashioned tube sound one have to use tube rectification, if using SolidState rectf the sound will be more less romantic and more neutral, transparent, etc...

On the NiteShade site there is something interesting about it...
http://sites.google.com/site/niteshadeaudio/options-guide

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Jun 2011, 09:45 pm »

I would say no, a tube pre-amp will not make a SS amplifier make "that great tube sound". Nor will a tubed dac or other tubed source component make a SS amplifier sound like a tube amp. It might make for a more pleasing sound, but it will not change the character of the power amplifier's sound which is solid state by nature.

I would even go a step further and say that most modern tubed source components (including pre amps) don't sound very tube like at all if they are made well. They just sound good (if they are made well).

To get that great tube sound if I understand what you mean by that, you should shop for a nice tube amplifier. Always have a speaker in mind when you by a tube amplifier, and vis versa.

rbwalt · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Jun 2011, 11:43 pm »

the cat pre-amp is not neutral in it's sound. it is lean and forward sounding.

r.

Occam · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 12:46 am »

Quote from: rbwalt on 16 Jun 2011, 11:43 pm

the cat pre-amp is not neutral in it's sound. it is lean and forward sounding.

r.

That would be largely dependent on the complement of tubes chosen. The all tube signal path uses 5 dual triodes in its line stage and 5 for phono. Mine uses 12ax7s and 6922s and I can get nearly any (reasonable) 'sound' I desire from available current production tubes. YMMV

FWIW,
Paul

rbwalt · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 01:12 pm »

on the CAT pre-amp not all tubes are going to make a difference. it is just not the tubes.

r.

Occam · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 02:32 pm »

Quote from: rbwalt on 17 Jun 2011, 01:12 pm

on the CAT pre-amp not all tubes are going to make a difference. it is just not the tubes.

Each and every tube in the CAT has a significant impact on its stage, even the terminal cathode followers, although to a a lesser extent than the SRPPs. Your assertion that

Quote

the cat pre-amp is not neutral in it's sound. it is lean and forward sounding.

is a reflection of whatever experience you might have with the CAT. I've heard 4 other systems locally with CAT preamps, and none of those systems could be characterized as either thin or forward. A fellow CAT owner characterized my system (when the CAT was my only piece of tubed gear) as warm and laid back.
But if you want to make blanket assertions about gear, that's fine.

Pez · « **Reply #8 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 02:55 pm »

Quote from: Occam on 17 Jun 2011, 02:32 pm

But if you want to make blanket assertions about gear, that's fine.

I'll make all the blanket statements I want. Fleece is warmer than down, silken fabrics are over-rated, quilting rocks the shit out of crocheting. And so on and so forth.

wushuliu · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 03:49 pm »

Shouldn't we try to find out from the OP what they consider Great Tube Sound?

BobRex · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 04:09 pm »

Quote from: Pez on 17 Jun 2011, 02:55 pm

I'll make all the blanket statements I want. Fleece is warmer than down, silken fabrics are over-rated, quilting rocks the shit out of crocheting. And so on and so forth.

Well, I can't argue with all of these blanket statements, but I'd say that pound for pound, down beats fleece.

JLM · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 04:10 pm »

I timely question for me.

As mentioned above a tubed DAC is making little difference in my system (with Channel Island Audio D-100 Hypex digital amps). In fact right now the DAC is unplugged and I'm enjoying my previous DAC and wondering if a tubed pre would help.

My speakers provide a full bodied/palpable/rich sound, so no tube bloom needed/wanted. But improvements in image density, depth/width of soundstage, dynamics are always welcomed.

So I invite any help, TIA.

JP78 · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 04:16 pm »

Quote from: wushuliu on 17 Jun 2011, 03:49 pm

Shouldn't we try to find out from the OP what they consider Great Tube Sound?

Absolutely not!

Seriously though; I've been very happy with a tubed-pre (deHavilland Ultraverve) + tubed-source (modWright CDP) and digital amplifier (Spectron) in the past.

This wasn't as harmonically emphasized as some vintage McIntosh monoblocks I had owned prior, but I found there to be just the right balance of hearing tubes when I wanted to hear 'em and them staying out of the way when I didn't. I will also be the first to admit I didn't care for ultimate accuracy, but wanted to enjoy my music more without worry for an exact recording being reproduced 100% neutrally-technically-perfect.

I suspect that previous posters have it right; given the varying bias of different make and model tubed preamplifiers, the topology, and the tube selections I think you can find what you're looking for. However, with the several thousands of options and permutations out there, I suppose the questions will become more of "which" and not "if".

Happy hunting,

driguy · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 07:33 pm »

As a suggestion you might try asking here on the forum if anyone in your area would be willing to let you plug in their tubed preamp to give a different unit a try. Buying different units is cost prohibitive for most. Then you can get a better base line as to what different units might do in your system. That being said, unless you have a super clean SS amp you will not hear the full benefit (or loss) from a tubed unit. I agree with the poster about quality units not being as different (SS vs. Tube) as they have been in the past. The standard "tubey" sound (generally considered to be softer and rolled off) is less prevalent than in years past though still available. Advances in capacitors have helped a lot in that regard. IMO what they do better is 3D portayal especially when they are not "softer" since the 3D effect relies quite a bit on microdynamics that can get lost in the softer units.
I hope that you can get someone to help out with an afternoon loan. Most guys are very happy to show what their gear can do.

troutboy · « **Reply #14 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 11:36 pm »

I have used tube preamps with class A ss amps for several years now and the biggest challenge will be to find the right tubes for the preamp to get the sound you want. When i first started out it had cheapie current production tubes in it and my first impression was i had made a big mistake and wasted my money. As i did some reading and some tube rolling with some better current production and vintage tubes, the sound got a lot closer to what i was wanting and then i found the right combination for the setup i have and have enjoyed it ever since.

I have this system setup such that i can switch between the ss class A amp and a set 2a3 amp using the same preamp. There isn't that large a difference in the sound i am getting when i make the switch from the ss amp to the tube amp.

A lot of the tube selection will depend on the type of music that you are intending to play on the system. For the older jazz stuff that i use this system for it works wonderfully well. When i get in a classic rock mood and put it through the same setup i am not nearly as satisfied with the sound and would probably have to change preamp tubes to get the sound i wanted if that was my primary listening choice.

The tube preamp and ss amp combination is the best of both worlds when you have inefficient speakers and need tons of power. You can still get the tube sound and pay much less for an amp with the power you need.

SteveFord · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 Jun 2011, 11:51 pm »

I say go for the tube amp and don't look back.
A good one will make you want to kick yourself for waiting so long.

Diamond Dog · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Jun 2011, 04:41 am »

Quote from: Pez on 17 Jun 2011, 02:55 pm

I'll make all the blanket statements I want. Fleece is warmer than down, silken fabrics are over-rated, quilting rocks the shit out of crocheting. And so on and so forth.

Once again, truth has been dispensed all over everybody. Pez, you lil' rascal !

D.D.

Larkston Zinaspic · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Jun 2011, 05:16 am »

I'm not certain about 'great' tube sound, but every time I've heard tube gear that sounded good there were usually vintage tubes rolled in there somewhere....

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Jun 2011, 01:32 pm »

Voltage regulation is a feature much overlooked and under discussed with tube amps (not as absolutely necessary with tube preamps)

With it, bass lines are crisper and more taut...as most appreciate with SS amps. Yet the gloriously denser, more rich and full musical presentation remains.

Really, a deal breaker for me.

For tube or SS gear I now only buy fully dual mono. That is separate power supplies and traces for each channel. The difference in imaging is notable (to me) and palpable. There is no 'essentially' dual mono as some manufacturers like to claim...there's only dual mono and manufacturers making for price points and avoiding the extra cost of dual mono

So, voltage regulated (tube regulators or SS...both are fine and just different flavors) and FULLY dual mono advance tube gear to higher performance I've found.

John

rollo · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Jun 2011, 01:36 pm »

Quote from: Occam on 17 Jun 2011, 02:32 pm

Each and every tube in the CAT has a significant impact on its stage, even the terminal cathode followers, although to a a lesser extent than the SRPPs. Your assertion that is a reflection of whatever experience you might have with the CAT. I've heard 4 other systems locally with CAT preamps, and none of those systems could be characterized as either thin or forward. A fellow CAT owner characterized my system (when the CAT was my only piece of tubed gear) as warm and laid back.
But if you want to make blanket assertions about gear, that's fine.

Could not agree more Ollie. That is what CAT strives for according to Ken Stevens. The CAT is a microscope of sorts revealing all in front of it. Ones front end better be spot on or your gonna hear it. My guess the lean and forward is something else. Forward maybe and that is a stretch .

charles