[Rclark]

 Huh, I'd love to see someone build one of these so I can follow along.


 - for a few days there I was certain I wanted to try tube amp next, now not so sure, why bother 

[wushuliu]

Huh, I'd love to see someone build one of these so I can follow along.


 - for a few days there I was certain I wanted to try tube amp next, now not so sure, why bother 

Still dismissing tubes... Sigh. You have power-hungry speakers if I remember so tubes would be impractical anyways.

[Rclark]

well, it's not that... Not dismissing. I was actually considering saving up for some Manley Snappers, or something like that (still have a lot to learn about the different options I might have). 110 watts of full bandwidth power would be quite an upgrade to what I have now... (and a perfect match to my speakers, I've been told).

But from what I understand so far about these NCores is I could potentially spend a lot less, and have 400 watts on tap with from what everyone is saying, pretty revolutionary sonic attributes.

 I would love to have tube monos... would certainly look a lot cooler... but ultimately it's power and fidelity that matter most at the least cash outlay.
 
"Ncore® is the first class D amplifier not just to nudge the best linear amplifiers, but to surpass them in every aspect relevant to sound quality."

[wushuliu]

well, it's not that... Not dismissing. I was actually considering saving up for some Manley Snappers, or something like that (still have a lot to learn about the different options I might have). 110 watts of full bandwidth power would be quite an upgrade to what I have now... (and a perfect match to my speakers, I've been told).

But from what I understand so far about these NCores is I could potentially spend a lot less, and have 400 watts on tap with from what everyone is saying, pretty revolutionary sonic attributes.

 I would love to have tube monos... would certainly look a lot cooler... but ultimately it's power and fidelity that matter most at the least cash outlay.

I understand, just giving you a hard time 
When you need that much power, it's hard to justify tubes.

[Rclark]

 Do you think their included PS is the best option? I am of course, in love with batteries now, but maybe you just don't need that sort of thing with these Ncores. But if it's an option I'd rather have a battery PS and forego any need for power conditioning. I read the pdf about the PS for the Ncore and it seems to be pretty robust, but my experience so far is that batteries are the best.

[Rclark]

Hey, stumbled across this neat tidbit in the DIY thread:

from Bruno, the designer:

"What would be the Ncore of DAC's? No idea. I have some serious plans to dive into a PWM based DAC, consisting of a modulator like the one described in http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/AES120BP.pdf and using a FIR type DAC for improved HF jitter tolerance. Although I'm aiming for much higher measured performance than even the ESS chips, I think that one of those or some other decent chip with a smartly designed I/V is not to be sneezed at. I'm halfway through the design of an AD1955 based board with a very fancy I/V (loads of feedback, as you can imagine), I have high hopes for it. "

[Rclark]

 Still digging through that very technical thread over there:


Bruno- "A year ago a successful hi-fi importer and key figure in a very famous loudspeaker manufacturer responded to hearing an early prototype of the NC1200 (and contrasting its size, weight and cost against the reference set it had just beaten): "This thing is going to destroy the amplifier market as we know it. Which, for you, is good news of course." He then immediately went on to ouline the exact problem I knew I'm faced with and proposed to apply all his business acumen to finding a strategy. He still hasn't found anything workable.

So the problem is clearly tough but I am not at all convinced it is a dichotomy (in which there are exactly two solutions in mutual exclusivity). To show this, let's assume I take one of these choices and try to hit the "mass market". Taking the above importer's opinion at face value, how do we make the mass market appreciate that this is the real deal, the [name big brand] amp in a milk carton? Can you imagine any hi-fi reviewer picking up the courage to state that an amplifier has arrived that refers mammoth amps to the age of dinosaurs? Why do you think these guys are so good at waffling? If I work the mass market first, that gives them an excuse to say "yeah fine for mid-priced home theatre but there still is this stratosphere where linear amps rule", thus turning the old technology into something to aspire to. It's the perfect way of letting disruptive technology sit in the market for ages without anyone really noticing. That's why I think it's not either-or, but both-and. But that will take quite a bit of forethought.

Economists might imagine otherwise, but the free market is not run by rational, fully informed consumers. It is ran by opinions, partial information, pre-existing business interests and the pure chaos that any sufficiently non-linear feedback system has. The days that the superior technology automatically succeeds commercially on its own merits are over. Thanks for the link btw I will probably buy this book."

 interesting stuff so far...

[HT cOz]

I'm interested enough in this amp to have some enclosures made for the modules.  I have a thread on diyaudio outlining the case design. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/205757-hypex-ncore-chassis-coz.html

 

Robert

[Rclark]

Yeah.. Me too! So about 15-16 hundred and You're rockin' ?  If all this about it is true, cool!

[yetis]

Still digging through that very technical thread over there:


Bruno- "A year ago a successful hi-fi importer and key figure in a very famous loudspeaker manufacturer responded to hearing an early prototype of the NC1200 (and contrasting its size, weight and cost against the reference set it had just beaten): "This thing is going to destroy the amplifier market as we know it. Which, for you, is good news of course." He then immediately went on to ouline the exact problem I knew I'm faced with and proposed to apply all his business acumen to finding a strategy. He still hasn't found anything workable.

So the problem is clearly tough but I am not at all convinced it is a dichotomy (in which there are exactly two solutions in mutual exclusivity). To show this, let's assume I take one of these choices and try to hit the "mass market". Taking the above importer's opinion at face value, how do we make the mass market appreciate that this is the real deal, the [name big brand] amp in a milk carton? Can you imagine any hi-fi reviewer picking up the courage to state that an amplifier has arrived that refers mammoth amps to the age of dinosaurs? Why do you think these guys are so good at waffling? If I work the mass market first, that gives them an excuse to say "yeah fine for mid-priced home theatre but there still is this stratosphere where linear amps rule", thus turning the old technology into something to aspire to. It's the perfect way of letting disruptive technology sit in the market for ages without anyone really noticing. That's why I think it's not either-or, but both-and. But that will take quite a bit of forethought.

Economists might imagine otherwise, but the free market is not run by rational, fully informed consumers. It is ran by opinions, partial information, pre-existing business interests and the pure chaos that any sufficiently non-linear feedback system has. The days that the superior technology automatically succeeds commercially on its own merits are over. Thanks for the link btw I will probably buy this book."

 interesting stuff so far...

So far, they have not changed a thing.  The only commercial manufacturer to use them thus far is Theta -- At $6,000 a channel.   Hardly mainstream
If its that good there is little chance a manufacturer such as Channel Island, PSAudio etc will not step up.  This is a perfect product for psaudio to jump back into amps.  That said, not sure what the delay is!

[Rclark]

It's an excellent thread, they discuss all of those reasons. I dont need any more convincing to want to try some though, just need to save. Be cool to see what JT thinks though.

[James Romeyn]

Huh, I'd love to see someone build one of these so I can follow along.


 - for a few days there I was certain I wanted to try tube amp next, now not so sure, why bother 

I'm buying three Ncore amps (one chassis) for a Trinaural music system.  Each circuit board (amp, PS) is fully assembled and tested.  All components are pre-installed in the circuit boards.  Wire inputs, outputs, interconnect two boards, done.  No transformer required. 

Looks like a breeze, really.  Per channel can't be more than a couple hours of wiring/soldering after completing all mechanical assembly.

Two users selling their Atma-Sphere OTL monos in favor of new Ncore amps...both users have OTL-friendly speaker loads. 

I spoke on the phone with Guido Tent of Tent Audio Labs (B-Audio DAC in 6moons) in the Netherlands, who makes a well received Hypex UcD based amp (no Ncore yet) with tube input, transformer coupling.  A friend A-B'd the Tent amp with AKSA Naksa 100 (at my house now) and he preferred the Tent amp by "30-40%".  Guido spoke reverently, very highly of his friend Bruno's latest Ncore technology (they are geographically close).   

I'm pretty well sold on Ncore.  I've not sampled a ton of digital amps, but in the MI world the Acoustic Image is tops (heard it on Duke LeJeune's Audio Kinesis Thunderchild Acoustic Friendly model, likely the best bass guitar/cello/acoustic guitar speaker extant.  IMO the early Spectron was suck city.  I heard several B&O ICE power-based Bel Canto and dislike it (some owners later came to same conclusion and sold Bel Canto).  Finally heard CI Audio 200W Hypex UcD based amp at 2012 CES powering the fantastic new $1500/pr ESS stand mount speaker with proprietary new mid bass technology.  The system including the amp kicked butt and I'd take the CI Audio Hypex amps in a heartbeat.  Blows away the Bel Canto ICE power technology IMO. 

Similar to another comment at DIY, Bruno's competitors may be walking around with Bruno voo-doo dolls (joke).  Better said: I'd not want to be one of Bruno's competitors in the amp world. 

My favorite all-time amps (I gave up on all-tube amps) are:

Aesthetix hybrid monos at 2012 CES powering one of the best speakers I've heard, Vandersteen 5A Carbon (amazing)

ModWright 150SE powering Audiomachina 1st order xo, in cabinets carved from solid aluminum billet (similarly amazing)

Latest Ampzilla monos Mk II, might share quality with above amps but speakers too different to properly judge, TAS Product of the Year Award winner

Linn Chakra Majik 100, analog chip with bipolar transistors at output to boost current

I'll A-B my Ncore with the Ampzilla. 

[Vapor Audio]

I've had my share of Class D amps over the years.  I've owned amps based on 4 I think different Ice modules from PS Audio, Wyred 4 Sound, Red Dragon, and D-Sonic.  I've had Hypex amps based on the UCD180 and 400 modules.  I've had ClassDAudio amps, I've had gainclones, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. 

I have no idea what the new Ncore stuff sounds like.  The other Hypex I've heard however is a bit flat dimensionally, decent depth to the stage but little width ... and no information or sparkle around the edges.  And like all the other Class D (except gainclone) just a bit rolled off and lifeless on top. 

What I want to say is I have a new Class D amp here for review and can say that it's easily the best Class D I've heard yet, by a long shot.  The Diyhifisupply.com gainclone integrated with tube front sounded as good at low volumes, but it's low power, high noise floor, and other quirks keep it from be in the same class. 

Drum roll ... that new amp is from D-Sonic.  Same manufacturer from which I've bought Ice amps before, and always wanted a bit more out of those amps.  However, talking with Dennis there, this is an all new architecture.  You'll have to wait for the Stereomojo review to read the details, but the point is it sounds incredible.  In my mind, finally a Class D that really can replace reference AB amps.  It's about the same price as a pair of those raw Ncore modules btw. 

[James Romeyn]

Turbo,
Thanks. 

Which if any CI Audio amp did you own or audition?  If none, what was the make/model employing Hypex UCD?   

[Vapor Audio]

Turbo,
Thanks. 

Which if any CI Audio amp did you own or audition?  If none, what was the make/model employing Hypex UCD?   

I haven't owned or used at home anything from CI Audio.  But I have heard them in other systems and show rooms before.  I don't base my opinions though on stuff I've only heard at shows.  What I've had here is a Genesis GR180, an AVM C8, and a custom build using the UCD400 and a big torroidal power supply.

[James Romeyn]

So far, they have not changed a thing.  The only commercial manufacturer to use them thus far is Theta -- At $6,000 a channel.   Hardly mainstream

As most including you likely know, Theta is serious high-end, not "mainstream" or entry or mid-level. 

Ncore DIY model is 200/400/600Wrms @ 8/4/2 Ohms and rated to 2-Ohms if employing one Hypex SMPS600 per channel (or rated to 5 Ohms for one SMPS600 per two amp channels).  Hypex offers no volume discount and no OEM support for this DIY amp, so highly unlikely OEM will employ it.  It's a special DIY-only product.     

OEM get the 1200 amp, 400/800/1200Wrms @ 8/4/2 Ohms with appropriate PS.  Also, best I can tell Hypex offers no pre-engineered OEM PS for the 1200 amp, meaning the OEM must supply the PS (obviously the OEM PS affects power/current specs...it could be linear or switching mode).   

The Theta amp you mention has a linear PS, not SM (switching mode).   

If its that good there is little chance a manufacturer such as Channel Island, PSAudio etc will not step up.  This is a perfect product for psaudio to jump back into amps.  That said, not sure what the delay is!

I wonder if the Ncore 1200 amp for OEM is priced a bit higher than typical PS Audio products.  Not sure about CI Audio but IIRC their 400W amp is moderately costly, so maybe within their market strategy.

Within time California will decertify sale of class A and likely all or most class AB linear amps, and possibly the same for the EU (though the EU deals with other problems currently, such as its future existence).   

[Rclark]

Turbo, Bruno says the sound of the Ncore is "no sound at all, just the music" . Just your source.

[Vapor Audio]

Turbo, Bruno says the sound of the Ncore is "no sound at all, just the music" . Just your source.

Haha, that's total marketing talk.  Even if it were true you'd never know it unless you're the only person on the planet who has perfect speakers. 

[Rclark]

That's probably true to some level, but you should also read the white paper.

[Vapor Audio]

That's probably true to some level, but you should also read the white paper.

I would like to hear one someday ... for now, I'm glad I found out about the new D-Sonic stuff.