[werd]

Thankyou Frank for that enlightening post. Not to many posts like that. There really isn't.

The most important piece is your source. Its the backbone of this whole topic. I do think its the big mis calculation in this hobby. The source plays the band. When we play different amps with the same source its going to sound the same.
The source rules the sonic roost. If you continue with the same frontend the whole soundstage is going to have the same sonic charteristics. It just will be powered different with different noise but it will sound some the same. I have been on this for some time and its been my biggest urk.

The source rules and everything else is just tweaks and speaks.

[Afterimage]

werd, I have to disagree.  The speakers and room rule over the source.  Heck I can get great sound with a 50 dollar DVD player as my source.   I can't get that with speakers that are relative to that.

[Wayner]

I do consider my studio somewhat of an audio lab. I have 3 1/2 systems here and within moments can have different preamps, running different amps, running different speakers. There are lots of combinations to be had.

That said, the one single component that always seems to have the greatest effect in over-all sound of the system, is the preamp. Case in point, a newly aquired Marantz 140 power amp, powered by my AVA Insight+ EC preamp sounds much better then my Marantz 3300 preamp, running my Ultravalve.

Source components only had a marginal effect. The moral to my story is that no single component sounds like another one, unless it's built exactly the same. Could you pick it out in an AB test? Probably not, but I don't think that is the issue, rather the synergy between components and their interactions with one another, especially power supplies and more specific, toroidal based power supplies.

I certainly have my favorite combinations of preamps, amps and speakers and they almost always stay the same. I find that the sound field (especially listening in near-field) expands and contracts switching out components (not source) and I strive to achieve the largest sound stage I can get, even at the expense of some bottom end, if that is what it takes.

That is my take on the topic.

Wayner 

[fredgarvin]

I do consider my studio somewhat of an audio lab. I have 3 1/2 systems here and within moments can have different preamps, running different amps, running different speakers. There are lots of combinations to be had.

That said, the one single component that always seems to have the greatest effect in over-all sound of the system, is the preamp. Case in point, a newly aquired Marantz 140 power amp, powered by my AVA Insight+ EC preamp sounds much better then my Marantz 3300 preamp, running my Ultravalve.

Source components only had a marginal effect. The moral to my story is that no single component sounds like another one, unless it's built exactly the same. Could you pick it out in an AB test? Probably not, but I don't think that is the issue, rather the synergy between components and their interactions with one another, especially power supplies and more specific, toroidal based power supplies.

I certainly have my favorite combinations of preaamps, amps and speakers and they almost always stay the same. I find the the sound field (especially listening in near-field) expands and contracts switching out components (not source) and I strive to achive the largest sound stage I can get, even at the expense of some bottom end, if that is what it takes.

That is my take on the topic.

Wayner 

this is my experience as well. As far as electronic components go, the preamp has the most wide ranging effect on sound.

[doug s.]

Thankyou Frank for that enlightening post. Not to many posts like that. There really isn't.

The most important piece is your source. Its the backbone of this whole topic. I do think its the big mis calculation in this hobby. The source plays the band. When we play different amps with the same source its going to sound the same.
The source rules the sonic roost. If you continue with the same frontend the whole soundstage is going to have the same sonic charteristics. It just will be powered different with different noise but it will sound some the same. I have been on this for some time and its been my biggest urk.

The source rules and everything else is just tweaks and speaks.

wow - if you think your system's source will make different amps sound the same, i recommend you unload that spendy bryston 14b-sst/2 amp & replace it w/something 10%-20% of its price.  after all - it will still sound the same!   

doug s.

[doug s.]

this is my experience as well. As far as electronic components go, the preamp has the most wide ranging effect on sound.

+2 - this has also been my experience.

doug s.

[werd]

wow - if you think your system's source will make different amps sound the same, i recommend you unload that spendy bryston 14b-sst/2 amp & replace it w/something 10%-20% of its price.  after all - it will still sound the same!   

doug s.

  I was expecting that. Amps do sound different. They amplify the source differently. Some will be more noisy, they power low frequency and high frequency different. When this question gets raised people's responses aren't telling the whole story. Everything we hear out of your speakers is the source amplified. So if you are going to talk about amps sounding the same and then exclude the source its makes the whole topic pointless.

[werd]

I do consider my studio somewhat of an audio lab. I have 3 1/2 systems here and within moments can have different preamps, running different amps, running different speakers. There are lots of combinations to be had.

That said, the one single component that always seems to have the greatest effect in over-all sound of the system, is the preamp. Case in point, a newly aquired Marantz 140 power amp, powered by my AVA Insight+ EC preamp sounds much better then my Marantz 3300 preamp, running my Ultravalve.

Source components only had a marginal effect. The moral to my story is that no single component sounds like another one, unless it's built exactly the same. Could you pick it out in an AB test? Probably not, but I don't think that is the issue, rather the synergy between components and their interactions with one another, especially power supplies and more specific, toroidal based power supplies.

I certainly have my favorite combinations of preamps, amps and speakers and they almost always stay the same. I find that the sound field (especially listening in near-field) expands and contracts switching out components (not source) and I strive to achieve the largest sound stage I can get, even at the expense of some bottom end, if that is what it takes.

That is my take on the topic.

Wayner 

  .. Come on. Marginal effect..... ? The source is the most important piece. It drives the entire vinyl market. If it didn't have the impact it does the vinyl market would've dried up long ago. Don't you give advice on setting up  vinyl rigs? What do you tell em. "don't worry about it, its all in the pre amp anyways".....

The whole thing is ridiculous and its  the problem with this site. That problem being there are too many manufactures selling their wares and giving out bad info in doing so. I see it all the time here and its made this site unholy.   

[Wayner]

.. Come on. Marginal effect..... ? The source is the most important piece. It drives the entire vinyl market. If it didn't have the impact it does the vinyl market would've dried up long ago. Don't you give advice on setting up  vinyl rigs? What do you tell em. "don't worry about it, its all in the pre amp anyways".....

The whole thing is ridiculous and its  the problem with this site. That problem being there are too many manufactures selling their wares and giving out bad info in doing so. I see it all the time here and its made this site unholy.

Since all of my turntables are correctly aligned, calibrated, and tweaked (any one of the nine), they are pretty much out of the "big change in sound" picture. The difference is small, compared to the difference preamplifiers make driving amplifiers.

There is no problem with this site. I think my approach is fair and balanced, and I think I have demonstrated to many that I go the extra mile to investigate. As another example, almost any modest quality CD player, plugged into a quality DAC, will sound the same on 99% of the program material.

There are differences in FM tuners, but they are subject to a host of plagues. I stand by my comments.

The source is an important component, but when all of the sources are really tweaked in, they do not offer the change in sound so apparent and immediate as changing a preamplifier. I mean are we talking about source turntables like a Montgomery Wards compared to a VPI? let's keep it real and focus on the OPs question.

My answer again is NO! And I gave some of (but not all) of the reasons why.

Wayner 

[Wayner]

And this starts another thread inside a thread, if the OP doesn't mind, as it does relate to the OPs original post.

Amplifiers have several factors that make them sound different. The most obvious one is power, but that is kind of an obscure topic in itself. A highly efficient pair of old time Altec Lansing or JBL "big speakers" would be served well with about 70 watts RMS power, because of their efficiency. However, an old AR5 would need goobs of power to get it going because it needed lots of power.

This was the mistake made over and over again, year after year, by not matching the amp with the speaker requirements. Moral of story, the more power, the better.

Second is damping factor. This simplified simply means the amplifiers ability to control the speaker thru the frequency range. Poor amplifiers had a DF rating of 20, high quality amps, 100 or more.

Third, the power supply design. For output devices to become free of distortion and strain, they need to be fed lots of clean, high current. Quality amps will have many stages of regulated power supplies.

Other factors are input impedance, sensitivity, filtering and the likes of all things good for a quality amplifier. Because they all have different values in anyone of those specifications, they all behave (even slightly) different from one another.

I have 8 amplifiers here and they all have different design perimeters and they all sound unique, and when I mix the fixx shuffling in different preamps it gets really bizzare.

Wayner 

[werd]

Wayner sir

Ok, we all know that every piece is important in one way or another. And at some point one might find a speaker change will give the biggest bang for the buck. That does not make the speakers the most important part of your audio chain in general. Its just an upgrade. The same with preamps. Actually no other component imo can rain on your parade than a bad preamp. Bad pre amps just makes everything sound grey and un- involving. You can a good soundstage but no audio thrills. 

The question you have to ask that's relevant is. When i am listening to music what am i hearing?. Am i hearing the speakers, am i hearing the amps or am i hearing the room or am i hearing the source component? The correct is answer is all of the above. But my answer would be all of the above but the source sets it all up.

In a resolving system anything i do to my source components i can hear. That means its getting amplified. I can change out cables racks and other tweaks that change out all the soundstage characteristics. I can get different prat and resolution with proper AC set up and cabling of the source component. You can hear it all the way through the chain of audio components.  To stay on topic, if i change power amps i get soundstage changes that are contributed to power issues. Important but whats the point if its not there to begin with. Its just power it doesn't manufacture an original signal. ALL it does is power the source signal.

So what do you hear when you listening to your gear. You hear the source. It plays the band. When you tweak the source and it changes out significant sound stage qualities then its only rational. The source is the most important piece.

[Wayner]

Werd,

We are so cloooose to agreeing on everything, I like your last comment, too. But our differences are in the "pecking" order of change.

If I had a friend that asked me to help him "recover" from a boring stereo 2 channel, the first thing I would recommend is the preamp. It will bring the biggest change, IMO.

But also remember that change does not mean "better", it means different.

I do some work at a local electronics shop, here in town, and we have many models of vintage receivers like Marantz, Technics, Harmon Kardon and older Sony. It's very interesting to witness the change in the systems behavior, using the same speakers, the same room, but driving with a different receiver. Some low wattage ones (like a Marantz 2238) will kick ass, while a 100 watt (Sony) is dull and lifeless. We use the same CD player (no DAC). I have no doubt that if all we did was swap out CD players, all we would do  and go huh?

Wayner 

[werd]

Werd,

We are so cloooose to agreeing on everything, I like your last comment, too. But our differences are in the "pecking" order of change.

If I had a friend that asked me to help him "recover" from a boring stereo 2 channel, the first thing I would recommend is the preamp. It will bring the biggest change, IMO.

But also remember that change does not mean "better", it means different.

I do some work at a local electronics shop, here in town, and we have many models of vintage receivers like Marantz, Technics, Harmon Kardon and older Sony. It's very interesting to witness the change in the systems behavior, using the same speakers, the same room, but driving with a different receiver. Some low wattage ones (like a Marantz 2238) will kick ass, while a 100 watt (Sony) is dull and lifeless. We use the same CD player (no DAC). I have no doubt that if all we did was swap out CD players, all we would do  and go huh?

Wayner 

 

At this point everybody probably thinks source components are my favorite gear. No my favorite components are power amps.  When i look at systems i always see power first. I like power amps the best. I even tried to spice up the look of my bdp/bda to make it more interesting.....




  i know its ridiculous.

The first time i heard my source gear as a component wasn't until after i invested in good treated AC. I started tweaking out my source and it clicked. I went -- "WOW" -- i actually hear this component. The whole mystery of the audio chain unveiled itself to impact of each component. The fog was gone. I looked at systems differently and how they work as a whole.

  It reminded me the first time i went and had my prostate checked...lol. During the exam..." i was like holy shit!!! thats been there all along...... "

When i started tweaking my source gear i heard the source  component for what it was. The beginning of the audio chain. The tweaks were on the source and it changed up the sound. It also speaked to the importance of that component. If you hear that gear and you can change it then its clearly the most important piece. Especially since its at the start of the audio chain.

Pre amps are the component that you are not suppose to hear. Its completely unlike the source gear. That piece should be neutral and out of the way. I am speaking theoretical.
Realistically we all love the little things it does when we use tubes or active line or passive. Its just are tweaking nature. But for me it just a tweak off the source. You see where i am going with this.

Power amps amplify, thats it. Clean with lots of reserve. But we all love the different ways the power changes up the source signal. Its just are tweaking nature of the source of making it loud..

Speakers react to the signal load it sees from the amp. It allows us to hear the music played on our source gear. Setting up a speakers in a decent audio chain is difficult and some how i think people confuse it with importance. Getting the right speaker position and knowing the right speaker choices is being some what skillful. It doesn't speak to the importance of it an the  audio chain imo but the skillfullness of it. They are just harder to set up and we all like the way they can look and how they sound.

So when i hear people say "all amps sound the same" and they are using the same source gear and not very great. (I am not talking about yours Wayner). I think to my self "no shit". Everything is going to sound the same if you don't set up your system to make it source friendly.

[Wayner]

OK, that makes some sense. I think for the sake of newbies or others looking to improve the overall sound of their systems, I have a "pecking" order of components, starting with the most effect with change out.

1. Speaker
2. Speaker position
3. Room
4. Preamplifier
5. Power Amplifier
6. Source
7. Power
8. interconnects and speaker wire.

I didn't discuss speakers earlier in the thread, cause that is not what the thread was/is about, but it is the obvious component that will bring about the biggest change to the sound of a system (good or bad).

One missing component is the "software". A crappy sounding record or CD seems to ruin the whole experience and it doesn't seem to matter how good the chain is, if the source material is bad. I'm not sure where that fits in, maybe at the top.

Wayner 

[decal]

One missing component is the "software". A crappy sounding record or CD seems to ruin the whole experience and it doesn't seem to matter how good the chain is, if the source material is bad. I'm not sure where that fits in, maybe at the top.

Well put Wayner, I agree 100%.

[Elizabeth]

The most important part of a system for the average audiophile is whatever is the weakest link.
That is the limiting factor, ALWAYS.
Whatever bit of kit it happens to be at the moment, it is the big problem. And fixing that problem will allow the whole system to sound way better, up to the limits of the next weakest bit of kit.
PERIOD.
Does not matter which thing it is, they all have to get the signal out of the music, and to your ears.
Added: any part can be fantastic, and you will never know it until you get the rest of the slack out. So that is my take on the issue. From 45 years of experience.
.

[nonoise]

The most important part of a system for the average audiophile is whatever is the weakest link.
That is the limiting factor, ALWAYS.
Whatever bit of kit it happens to be at the moment, it is the big problem. And fixing that problem will allow the whole system to sound way better, up to the limits of the next weakest bit of kit.
PERIOD.
Does not matter which thing it is, they all have to get the signal out of the music, and to your ears.
Added: any part can be fantastic, and you will never know it until you get the rest of the slack out. So that is my take on the issue. From 45 years of experience.
.

An end all to end all. A safe bet. Only when one puts something better in one's system, do they realize what was missing. But it doesn't mean it was 'the' answer. Granted, to the average audiophile this tried and true formula is spot on but with an above average system of a highly resolving nature one reaches a constant of sorts with one's system which begs the question: what piece in one's system sets the bar that positively affects the performance that the other pieces wouldn't?
I'm torn between the speakers and the source.

[JLM]

I'll repeat myself from another thread, but audiophiles each hear differently and so have different "hot buttons" (or "cold buttons").  So I doubt you'll ever gain much concensus on this issue.

For me, I have zero tolerance for surface noise, so I'll never own another turntable.

OTOH I'm a "speaker guy".

Wayner, I like your priorities, but have never owned an active pre-amp and for years have used monoblocks but not owned/used any pre-amps.  If there is a place in the system for "software" IMO it would be #2.

[Afterimage]

Wayner,   I am one of those Audio idiots that is switching gear in and out all the time.  Your pecking order list seems right on with my experience.  Just my 2 Cents.

[buckeyefanandy]

#1 is your ears and #2 is the room.  I would argue #3 is your chair or seat, you need to be comfortable and the last is whatever drink you have in your hands.

As you might guess, I am not a gear head.