[lcrim]

As Facilitator I am close to putting this thread in Quarantine.  Discussion must remain civil. 
"The only request is to keep it directed towards the music not each other."
Larry

[richidoo]

BTW, it is OK.  Plenty OK.

It's not OK with me to be abused by another member.   This is a social forum, it requires social skills. 

Thanks Larry for jumping in.
Rich

[jimdgoulding]

Apologies for my profanity.  Won't happen again.  I thought we were past this.  It angered me that we weren't.

[neobop]

It's not OK with me to be abused by another member.   

I agree. I'm not a turn the other cheek kind of guy.

This is supposed to be about that little girl who tries to play jazz.

[jimdgoulding]

"I have a few Brad Mehldau CDs that I find it difficult to listen for long periods because it is so boring".  I had one.  Thought I was the only one who thought so.  Not for me, either.

[ooheadsoo]

For those of you with sufficient interest, I would encourage you to find youtube videos of different performances of the same piece.  Her improvisational skills are noteworthy.

One track on this album, one track I am particularly enjoying is track 6, Desire.  I won't bore you guys with an analysis of the form, but her metric shifting (I think I just made that term up) in the last section of the form is infectious.  Way to make you move.  Can you feel the pull?  She starts this section for the first time at 1:44 - 1:59.

Looks like you can listen to it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToP8VVHo4tI

[neobop]

One of the main problems for people who learn jazz from an academic perspective, without actually experiencing it first hand, is the lack of space. This is very obvious to many who listen primarily for feel, what the music says to them, or pros. The tendency to dot every i and cross every t is a mistake. I hear it in some good musicians who can otherwise play very well.

If you listen to the real deal original musicians, I think you'll hear what I mean. The use of space in what is not played, make all the difference. The part of the phrase left unsaid is as important as what is said.

This sounds better to me - not the fusion, the improvisation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZaB9urlkgA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JfKY0K_NQk&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLYT3cPA5T8&feature=related

[jimdgoulding]

Yep, she plays notes.  Tightly and rhythmically, but he feel of jazz as I know it is absent. 

[jdoris]

I wonder why Clarke, who could presumably play with any piano player he wants, plays with Hiromi.  I'm guessing it's because she's excellent.

John

[jimdgoulding]

She is excellent and probably has a wide following which means steady work and better paying venues I would venture.

[ooheadsoo]

Although I have been through school for music, I have been listening to jazz since I was in grade school.  No, she is not the greatest piano player in the world, and comparing her to Tatum playing stride is cruel.  We will always listen to Tatum and he will probably never be surpassed in terms of stride.  The cutting floor is a different matter, but we don't do that much any more.

BTW, the Hiromi links you provided are from what I feel to be her strongest album.  However, it is my opinion that this one isn't as far off as you think.  No, she's not trying to leave much space in the solos in this album.  I don't think her compositions allow for much of it at first blush.  I do think that as she plays them more and becomes more comfortable with them herself, she will incorporate more space and phrasing. 

Most of her albums are different from each other and none of them are  jazz in the classic sense.  However, due to the emphasis on the improvisational spirit and phenomenal technique and creativity, I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand.  It's simply different.

[neobop]

I wonder why Clarke, who could presumably play with any piano player he wants, plays with Hiromi.  I'm guessing it's because she's excellent.
John

She is excellent, but I doubt if Clarke can play with any pianist he wants. Maybe if the gig pays really good, LOL...

From what I can see, it seems that her efforts as far as jazz is concerned are mostly toward the fusion kind of stuff that Stanley does so well. She's a perfect techno machine so why not? Did you have time to look at the last 2 cuts I posted above? I'll check out the Clarke stuff if there is any. Tell me how she stacks up to Art Tatum.

Here she's playing with Chick. He's got the lead. He wrote the tune so she's getting a lesson in technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRU1o-sCnqY&feature=related

If she's playing as a sideman it could be quite different than if she's playing solo or leading her own band. I never said she couldn't play. I said that it didn't feel  like jazz.

Ooheadsoo,
I was just about to post this when it advised of your post. When I first heard Sadao Watanabe I thought he might be pretty good. With further listening it seems he did the same thing. He would dot every i and cross every t and it just wasn't right. I don't know if this changed with experience, maybe it did. Hiromi is young and some of the things I just heard seem very promising in that respect.

Most good jazz musicians are classically trained these days, but it seems like you play one or the other cause classical guys play terrible jazz. Everyone with formidable chops is compared to Tatum. No getting around it. Guys like Oscar or Tete held their own. Some day Hiromi might make that short list. She has a better chance than a couple of others I've heard.
Peace,
neo

[ooheadsoo]

Just got back from seeing Hiromi tonight.  It was a blast, and I love that she played a couple cuts from her older albums.  XYZ was a real treat to hear live.

I don't think Hiromi will ever play an album full of swinging straight ahead jazz, and thus will probably never attain the same sense of traditional jazz musicality that the old greats have.  Luckily, her music has other things going for it.  I consider it quintessential post modern. 

[ooheadsoo]

One thing I should note, you will enjoy her more avant garde material if you enjoy subdividing and counting.  One of the reasons I like her music so much is that I enjoy deconstructing the time signatures in my head.

[Mikeinsacramento]

One thing I should note, you will enjoy her more avant garde material if you enjoy subdividing and counting.  One of the reasons I like her music so much is that I enjoy deconstructing the time signatures in my head.

That's ....like, some kind of musical ...intellectual speak that I don't get.  I'm glad you had fun.

[ooheadsoo]

Here are some remnants of what I knew.

Meter is simply an organization of strong and weak beats.  Think about clapping or snapping your fingers to a song.  You do it to a pattern set by the song, right?  That's the meter at work.  Meter determines how you move your body to the music (perhaps more accurately, the reverse is true.)  Everyone "knows" simple meters.  It's the stuff you usually dance to. 

Time signature is just sheet music notation for the meter.  It's the written representation of the meter.

Take 5 was the first mainstream jazz number to take it up a notch with a 3+2 (=5) meter.  Many jazz artists use odd compound meters (compound meaning taking simple meters like 2 and 3 and combining them in odd ways to achieve a different dynamic.  If they do it smoothly, you may not even notice it.

Here's a slick straight ahead jazz example in 7 (4+3, imo): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MrgxuyG0nE

Hiromi is not as slick as Hilario Duran there, but she also writes much much more complex tunes. 

When you listen to a song, they don't usually pass out sheet music for you to see what the time signatures are.  You can usually subconsciously (or consciously if you've had a little practice) tell what it is through your mind and body.  When the music gets more complex, there comes a point where you may need to engage more of your consciousness - if you want to get more out of the music.

If it's too much, just sit back and listen. 

Most music, especially popular music, doesn't fool with compound meters much.  That's why Take 5 was ground breaking.

Complex tunes are a matter of taste.  Some people will like it, some won't.  Many just don't find it "musical."  Others enjoy the mental exercise.

Here's an analogy: Ever play the game "Brain Age" on the Nintendo DS?  Ok, probably not, but basically, the "game" is composed of logic drills wrapped up and presented as a video game.  Come to think of it, it doesn't even pretend to be a video game, it actually presents itself as brain training.  The point is, believe it or not, people of all ages enjoy playing Brain Age.  Others don't see the point.  The Brain Age series has sold nearly 17.5 million copies. 

Enjoying complex music is a little like enjoying Brain Age.

Hm, you might even say that enjoying counting complex music is a little like enjoying playing a board game or card game where it's to your advantage to count cards or keep track of the game resources.  Sometimes it can be fun.  Other times, you just can't be bothered.

[neobop]

Just got back from seeing Hiromi tonight.  It was a blast, and I love that she played a couple cuts from her older albums.  XYZ was a real treat to hear live.

I don't think Hiromi will ever play an album full of swinging straight ahead jazz, and thus will probably never attain the same sense of traditional jazz musicality that the old greats have.  Luckily, her music has other things going for it.  I consider it quintessential post modern.

What goes around comes around. Like I said at the beginning, it's not jazz. You understand the concept, but miss the point? I think not. You don't understand the concept. Can Claude Bolling or Yo Yo Ma play jazz? I bet they could give a decent imitation, well maybe not Bolling. You presume too much.

Your convenient categorization of style blinds you to the reality of what exactly jazz is. It's not something defined by me. Take Five wasn't ground breaking because it was in 5/4 time. It was ground breaking because it was a popular hit that swung in 5/4 time. Most efforts in something other than 4/4 or 3/4 just don't swing. Was Jitterbug Waltz ground breaking?

Art Tatum was much more than a stride pianist. Your dismissal as stride misses the point. Listen to his left hand as he plays the cut (above).

Don't take this the wrong way. Hiromi is talented and delightful to watch. I too, am glad you had a good time. I object to the sophomoric music school teaching going on around here. You don't need that to justify your liking a performer.
Peace,
neo

[ooheadsoo]

What goes around comes around. ... You understand the concept, but miss the point? I think not. You don't understand the concept. ... You presume too much.

Your convenient categorization of style blinds you to the reality of what exactly jazz is. ...

...sophomoric music school teaching...

Peace,
neo

Why the ad hominem attacks?

I don't mean to use terms of art to make myself sound superior, but to express my meaning in a concise manner.  Sometimes people use shop talk to keep outsiders out.  That's not my intent.  I do admit to using music terms to "improve" my "authenticity," since I am being accused of "not getting it."  The motive behind my explanation is to help people increase their own knowledge of music and further their enjoyment of it.  And maybe it can help them understand why some people like music they don't personally like, too.  I hope that's not objectionable, and if others also find it "sophomoric," then I will be happy to remove that post.

[lcrim]

I have removed a post that continued the personal nature of much of this thread.  There are rules for posting here.  I previously interrupted this thread to point that out.   Discussion on this Circle must remain free of personal comments regarding other members or their musical tastes.
The next step will be to move the thread to quarantine until things get back on topic.

Larry

[neobop]

I have removed a post that continued the personal nature of much of this thread.  There are rules for posting here.  I previously interrupted this thread to point that out.   Discussion on this Circle must remain free of personal comments regarding other members or their musical tastes.
The next step will be to move the thread to quarantine until things get back on topic.
Larry

Ooheadsoo,
Make that 3 posts. I can't explain your error without it being personal.

There's nothing racial or ethnic about my comments. You'll just have to figure it out by yourself or somewhere else.

Wynton Marsalis was criticized here, on much the same basis as Hiromi. Quintessential post modern, indeed.