[Vulcan00]

There is a man that says they do and he backs his views up with cash.

I read a interesting site the other day. This fella says at power levels under clipping that all amps sound the same. To back up his claim he has given opportunity for expert ears to try and see if they can tell a difference between their amp and another. The challenge is backed -up with a nice cash prize if you are able to pass his tests. The challenge does have a set of conditions and no one has ever passed !

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

[Big Red Machine]

I've owned 21 amps now in the last 6 or 7 years and NO, they do not sound the same.  It can be smoothness, bass, treble, clarity, depth, soundstage, etc. that varies.  The most recent pair of PS Audio's I used were nice and smooth with zippo for bass.  Is lack of bass part of the "sound"?  Per my definition, I hope so, cuz these things sucked big time.  Glad to have moved them out at a $ wash.

[decal]

I'm sure all amps sound the same to Mr. Clark and that's just fine. It doesn't mean they all sound the same to everybody else. The mechanics of hearing are the same for everyone,it's the perception of sound that creates these contraversies and creates all the fodder for discussion on sites like this one. Just my opinion, humble as it may be.
BTW, feel free to disagree, after all, it's a free country !!!!!!!

[JLM]

If they did I'd save money and just buy the cheapest.

But I'm cheap and I don't (just buy the cheapest), because they don't (sound alike).

Everyone in audio has their particular quirks, things that push (or don't push) their buttons.  I'm profess to being a "speaker guy".  I hear differences in amplification, but it just not as day & night important to me as most speaker attributes.  OTOH I can't stand surface noise from vinyl, so I "put up" with digititis.

All that aside, if you're really not an amp guy, you shouldn't be making such claims.  If you are and still make the claims with money on the table in front of others, your system is either very low resolving, or rigged somehow.

[S Clark]

I'm sure all amps sound the same to Mr. Clark and that's just fine. It doesn't mean they all sound the same to everybody else. The mechanics of hearing are the same for everyone,it's the perception of sound that creates these contraversies and creates all the fodder for discussion on sites like this one. Just my opinion, humble as it may be.
BTW, feel free to disagree, after all, it's a free country !!!!!!!

Hey, watch that Mr. Clark stuff.  This Mr. Clark can definitely hear the difference in just upgrading the caps in my Moscode.  If Richard Clark can't hear the difference, that's his problem.

[BobRex]

Here's the trick.... that EQ qualifier.  Basically, if they don't measure the same, then dammit, we're gonna make them the same! 

Clark tried to pull this on Fremer years ago, with a test between (if memory serves) a VTL 300 and an SS amp (providence of which escapes me).  Clark tried to install an EQ circuit into the ABX tester and Mikey refused to let him do it.  As a result, Mikey ran the raw test and scored 100%.  Clark then called it a statistical abberation, and refused to accept the results.  The test was run at a CES and documented in an issue of Stereophile.

So right off the bat, Clark (not you. Steve) is at least disingenuous, and possibly an outright liar. 

Virtually every amplifier reacts differently into a dynamic/ reactive load.  Some, more than others, but this is one part of what provides the differences in sonics.  Attempting to EQ the differences out and then claiming there is no difference is just laughable.

[avahifi]

Read a bit more closely.  The results claimed were not that Mr. Clark could not hear the difference, the claimed results were that nobody involved with the testing procedure could hear the difference.

However, I do notice one issue in his test setup that can account for the results, "all amps sound the same.".

The issue is his ABX box itself.

To make this operate when switching from power amp to power amp without generating nasty switching transients, the source driving both amps under test must be connected to both amps at the same time.  Connecting and disconnecting amplifier inputs while the amp is powered up does generate huge switching transients (as many of you have probably already unfortunately discovered.)   

The solution is to switch amp outputs only, not the inputs.

This means that the inputs of both amps are always tied together through the common input cables.

We have shown many times to amazed technicians that output distortion in audio amplifiers is reflected back all the way to its input connections.  We even demonstrated this to Julian Hirsch many years ago at his home (garage) sound lab.

Thus the distortion characteristics of both amps under test are mixed and combined and fed to both amps!

What do you think?  Maybe this would tend to make both amps under test sound exactly the same?

Of course!

Until somebody shows me an ABX box that can quietly switch input signals between the two amps under test and not contaminate the input signal in any way while doing this, I remain unconvinced that Mr. Clark's process is giving valid results.

Unfortunately, unanticipated variables are doing in the results.

Our method of subjective evaluation here at AVA is pretty simple.  We build one new channel, install it in a product keeping the other channel the same as before.  Switch the source to mono, have someone randomize the cable hookups, use two good speakers standing side by side to minimize room interactions, and then use the balance control to switch from one channel to the other.  We ask and try to answer three questions:  First can we hear any differences at all?  Second, are they better - worse differences or just differences? And third, do we "like" one channel better than the other?

I assure you that usually we can hear differences and with some degree of success find that our newest engineering ideas actually do bear musical fruit.  Not always though, some latest and greatest ideas are consigned back into parts in the lab test bins.  However this process does, we believe, keep us honest.

Finally note that we use this same proceedure to evaluate cables and speaker wires.  Unfortunately these almost always result in either no differences audible at all, or if there are differences, always attributable to excess capacitive loads built into the cables.

Amplifiers and  preamps and tuners and CD players DO NOT LIKE CAPACITIVE LOADS!  Getting new cables?  Rule number one, keep the capacitance as low as possible.  Rule two, keep them long enough to reach.  Rule three, use standard terminations that actually fit the equipment they connect, Rule four, keep the cables flexible and well shielded.  Nuf said.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[konut]

Of course all amps sound alike.......until you turn them on. 

[timind]

I'm another one who has owned several different amps over the past few years. Tubes, class D, A/B, integrated and separates. As long as we're comparing amps of similar types I don't believe I could  detect any difference in an A vs B test.
Although I would have a hard time describing characteristics, I can hear differences which reveal themselves over time. The result is how much desire I have to sit and listen and whether or not I am really enjoying listening. You know, that feeling of being amazed at what you're hearing.
I don't want to knock class D amps, but recently I was using a pair of monobloc amps with the ICE power ASP500 modules and for some reason bid on (and won) a Harman Kardon PA 2200 amp on ebay. After rewiring the HK I put it in my system and was wowed by it's sound. I really believe I heard a difference and sold the ICE amps. I'm trying to talk myself into using the cheap HK amp permanently. If it accepted balanced inputs I think I would.

[ebag4]

Although not solid state I have recently built a 2a3 SET amp.  The reason I mention this is that I have never heard another amp do what this amp does at a low volume; dynamics and the full spectrum of music.  I have owned probably 10 amplifiers over the past 10 years or so, some tube, some solid state, power amps, integrated, etc., none have presented the music at low levels like this amp does, so no, amps definately do not all sound the same.

Best,
Ed

[SET Man]

Hey!

   Wouldn't that be nice if that is true. That would have saved me lots money and time. 

Take care,
Buddy

[rollo]

  No they do not sound the same. now SS amps compared against each other or tubed amps compared to each other is tougher to discern IMO. Comparing a tubed amp to a SS amp is easier to discern.
   I believe in the garbage in garbage out concept. The speaker if worth its salt will reveal the issues of the source. A poorly executed speaker will distort the source.
  As an example our Pipedream speakers reveal all like a freaken microscope. One better have the components in front of it right or you will hear their faults. There is no comparison between our Lector CDP and say the Sony 755 CD/SACD player we have.
  Changing speakers to our Maggie 3As or Heco 4302 [ three way with silk dome tweeter and mid and paper cone bass] changes things but not as much as changing the source. That is our hands on experience anyway.



charles
   

[Mitsuman]

IMHO, finding the right amp and speaker combination can be both rewarding and frustrating. Purposely finding that just right combo, (or stumbling upon it  ) is one of the more fun parts of this hobby. So, that being said, how can anyone believe that all amps sound the same? 

edit: for clarity 

[walkern]

In my experience I've noticed that some amps seem to mate with or drive some speakers more musically than others.  For example, some speakers really seem to enjoy an amp that can deliver lots of current (Maggies?).  I seem to remember Bob Carver making some Sunfire amps that had two different outputs... one labeled as current and one as voltage maybe?  He claimed he could make a solid state amp sound more like a tube amp, or sound pretty much any way he wanted.  So apparently he too thinks amps can sound different from one another.

[Phil A]

IMHO, finding the right amp and speaker combination can be both rewarding and frustrating. Purposely finding that just right combo, (or stumbling upon it  ) is one of the more fun parts of this hobby. So, that being said, said how can anyone believe that all amps sound the same? 

Well said.  I've had amps over the years go out for repairs or upgrades.  Most of the time I have a had a spare laying around.  For the past 10 years, it has been an old Adcom 555.  I also used it for a bit to drive the left and right channel in the secondary bedroom system and the center channel in the secondary basement system.  My last couple of main system speakers I've owned were not the easiest load to drive but there is just night and day differences with the spare amp in the system

[geowak]

No I don't think that all amps sound alike. But I have found that different parts yield different results and the design of the amp really affects the sound.

Also of note is the psychology behind it all. We chose amp, we start to desire how it should sound, and we start to be less and less objective about the sound we hear. "This amp I own now sounds better than the one I had" mostly because we will it to sound better. Ha! Ha!

So here, we imagine the amp to sound different and better....

I think of looking through a photographic filter at a landscape. The filter may be blue, and as such, it makes the landscape look blue, or the filter may be red, thus the landscape looks red. Or yellow, and so on. The amp changes the sound like the filter changes the view of the landscape. Maybe not better, or worse but different for sure.

Another factor is when the amp develops sounds of it's own, like hum and buzz. I do not like this introduction of new sounds to the music, myself. And if the amp is defective, and introduces it's own foreign and unwanted image (cracked filter) which is superimposed on the sound (Landscape) that affects the sound in an adverse way.

Manufacturers and designers will defend a product that is defective this way, and this irritates me. Often they will tell you it's something else not the product. This is arrogance, ego and bravado, not confidence in their product.

So yes DEFECTS in design or execution or a BAD PART will make an amp sound different. I have had products like this and gotten rid of them.

I guess the best amp will have no filter affect or no sound of it's own. Usually those amps cost more money than I can afford...

[Letitroll98]

This fella says at power levels under clipping that all amps sound the same.

No they don't, he's wrong.  As previously noted, both source components and speaker/room interaction swamp the differences heard in amplifiers, especially when considering SS amps.  However, given a consistent environment of the same sources in the same room without changing speakers or their position, power amplifier differences are easily heard.   

[nonoise]

I've always been a fan of integrated amps since separates introduce too many variables into the equation. Having said that, I find that the source and speakers have more weight in the outcome, when all components are of higher than average quality.

With a great source and great speakers, the amp can be the weak link. Turn the equation around and you'll never fully realize the sound you want. That great amp will not live up to its potential due to the constraints of what's up and downstream of it.

Once your source and speakers are sorted out, then the amp can work its magic, strut its stuff, etc. One can experiment to one's heart's content with all manner of amps knowing that the constant in the equation are the source and speakers. Subtleties, clues, soundstage and all manner of detail and tone will differ with every amp you use. Cabling would be the icing on the cake. That, and tube rolling, or capacitor upgrades, op amp rolling, and any other tweak you can come up with. All of these upgrades and mods would be questionable unless your constants were the source and speakers.

So my take on it is no, all amps do not sound the same. They just need a great source and speakers to reveal what's going on.

[Freo-1]

In a word, yes, power amps can make a big difference.  For example, a Citation II will sound WAY different to an Adcom GFA 535. 

Case in point:  I just sold a Threshold S-150 to a gent locally, who got it to replace a Bryston SST-3.  He reported back that the Threshold sounds much more musical than the Bryston, and he is getting rid of his tube buffer, since the Threshold sounds so good.

Anyone who has owned Electrocompaniet will attest that the sound is not like most solid state amps.  They have a clarity that is astounding, and once you have one, most solid state amps no longer measure up. 

No doubt the preamp can make a big difference, but I'm hesitant to fall into the mindset that it's more important than the power amp.  They are both important, as is the music source, in order to get good sound from one's chosen speakers.

[borism]

Another relevant perspective was described by Markus Sauer in the January 2000 Stereophile article "God is in the nuances". He talked not necessarily about sound attributes but the emotional response of the listener. In the blind study he cites people had different emotional responses like degrees of relaxation or anxiety to the same pieces of music played through a completely "analog" system consisting of turntable and tube amplification vs. "digital" system of CD player and SS amplification. Of note, a third system of CD player with tube amplification produced, as expected, results falling in the middle. This means that both the source and amplification (unfortunately they did not separate out pre- vs. main amplification) is perceived by the listener and responded to. Interestingly, people with "Hi-Fi" experience seemed to at times prefer the sound of one system (digital) while their emotional response went the other way, i.e. feeling more relaxed with the analog system.